| --- Log opened Wed Sep 02 00:00:08 2009 |
| 00:20 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 00:22 | | Consul_ [~Consul__@Nightstar-1744.dsl.sfldmi.ameritech.net] has joined #code |
| 00:24 | | Consul [~Consul__@Nightstar-1744.dsl.sfldmi.ameritech.net] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 00:25 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 00:49 | | SmithKurosaki [~Smith@Nightstar-4395.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] |
| 00:50 | | SmithKurosaki [~Smith@Nightstar-4395.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #code |
| 00:50 | | mode/#code [+o SmithKurosaki] by ChanServ |
| 01:45 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 01:46 | <@Derakon> | Well, I've got my work cut out for me. |
| 01:47 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | ? |
| 01:47 | <@Derakon> | I'm back from my first day of work at UCSF. |
| 01:47 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | aha |
| 01:48 | <@Derakon> | And I had a chance to look at the source code, which was written by a fellow named Sebastien over the course of several years. |
| 01:48 | <@Derakon> | Half of the files are named something like "sebC.py" or "sebG.py". |
| 01:48 | <@Derakon> | Out of about 18k lines of Python, there are maybe 3k lines of comments...more than half of which are commented-out code. |
| 01:48 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | Oh noooooo. |
| 01:49 | <@Derakon> | Most of the files start with "from seb import all as X" or words to that effect. |
| 01:49 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | >__< |
| 01:49 | <@gnolam> | ... ow |
| 01:50 | <@Derakon> | In short, the man did not understand the principles of encapsulation, namespaces, or descriptive variable names. |
| 01:50 | <@Derakon> | Most of the modules are basically serving as global singletons. |
| 01:51 | | Vornicus-Latens is now known as Vornicus |
| 01:58 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-1382.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Z?] |
| 02:07 | | AnnoDomini [AnnoDomini@Nightstar-28863.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: No fighting in the War Room!] |
| 02:09 | | * Derakon tries to run ./configure on the SVN sourcecode, receives a notice that he needs the Apache Portable Runtime installed first, and a suggestion that he obtain this via SVN. |
| 02:10 | <@McMartin> | svn != svn-client |
| 02:10 | <@Derakon> | Ah, point. |
| 02:10 | | * McMartin stabs Debian. Again. |
| 02:49 | <@SmithKurosaki> | What did Debian do McM? |
| 02:52 | <@SmithKurosaki> | I like Ubuntu (and most of it's derivatives) all of which spawned from Debian... Or is the actaul Debian os giving you problems? |
| 03:29 | <@McMartin> | Its package repository is the most illogically-designed system I have ever had the displeasure of dealing with |
| 03:30 | <@Derakon> | s/displeasure of dealing with/misfortune to be unable to avoid dealing with/ |
| 03:30 | <@McMartin> | The fact that installing "subversion" pulls in 900MB of packages and does not actually let you check anything out via subversion was the case in point here, which I think Derakon was in part running into |
| 03:30 | <@Derakon> | Oh, I stopped trying to install subversion once it turned out I didn't already have all the dependencies. |
| 03:31 | <@Derakon> | I'm not in the mood to play that game right now. |
| 03:31 | <@McMartin> | There is also the minor issue of the fact that upgrades do not in fact actually upgrade your package, keeping you up-to-date, but instead produce entirely different packages, and so you must know which version you want if you want to actually install anything. |
| 03:40 | | Attilla [~The.Attil@92.21.240.ns-3266] has quit [Quit: ] |
| 04:11 | <@SmithKurosaki> | Oww |
| 04:12 | <@SmithKurosaki> | I am used to the ubuntu version, which is not complete crap, the gui version was a lot easier to use than the fedora version until I fixed it |
| 04:12 | <@McMartin> | Yeah; the synaptic repository doesn't have everything the underlying ones do, though. |
| 04:12 | <@McMartin> | So once you delve into the aptitude or, God help you, apt-get layer, all hope is lost |
| 04:14 | <@SmithKurosaki> | I always had to use apt-get, what is this magical thing you call aptitude? |
| 04:22 | <@McMartin> | A curses-based interface to apt-get and apt-cache that invokes whichever the right one was supposed to be under the hood |
| 04:23 | <@McMartin> | Still a pain in the ass to use, but at least it's indexable |
| 04:25 | <@SmithKurosaki> | Ahh, I have always used either synaptic or apt-get/cache. I will have keep this in mind next time I am romping around in a debian based system. Is it gui & command line usable? |
| 04:26 | <@McMartin> | It's ncurses-based; it runs in a mock gui inside a terminal |
| 04:26 | <@SmithKurosaki> | Ahh, I much prefer my guis to not be curses ones |
| 04:26 | <@SmithKurosaki> | They seem very odd to me |
| 04:49 | | Consul_ is now known as Consul |
| 05:24 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 05:46 | | Thaqui [~Thaqui@121.98.166.ns-22683] has joined #code |
| 05:46 | | mode/#code [+o Thaqui] by ChanServ |
| 06:03 | | * Rhamphoryncus was burned by aptitude years ago, when he had some packages it considered "broken" and would throw a hissyfit if he tried to install anything.. but apt-get said his system was fun |
| 06:03 | < Rhamphoryncus> | fine* |
| 06:04 | < Rhamphoryncus> | These days I'm in ubuntu, using the add/remove GUI, synaptic, or apt-get install from the command line |
| 06:05 | <@McMartin> | apt-get install has only caused me pain and suffering |
| 06:06 | <@SmithKurosaki> | Oh yea, I had the same issue with Opera and xubuntu when my eeepc was fucked up |
| 06:06 | <@SmithKurosaki> | The issue I do have with apt-get is that apt-cache is also used, and depending on what command you want to use, which of those two commands you use will change |
| 07:25 | | Consul [~Consul__@Nightstar-1744.dsl.sfldmi.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] |
| 07:43 | | Vornicus is now known as Vornicus-Latens |
| 09:06 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 09:30 | | AnnoDomini [AnnoDomini@Nightstar-28863.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #Code |
| 09:30 | | mode/#code [+o AnnoDomini] by ChanServ |
| 09:44 | | ToxicFrog [~ToxicFrog@Admin.Nightstar.Net] has quit [Operation timed out] |
| 09:44 | | SmithKurosaki [~Smith@Nightstar-4395.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Operation timed out] |
| 09:50 | | SmithKurosaki [~Smith@Nightstar-10871.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #code |
| 09:50 | | mode/#code [+o SmithKurosaki] by ChanServ |
| 10:04 | | crem [~moo@Nightstar-28703.adsl.mgts.by] has joined #code |
| 10:06 | | Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@Nightstar-3964.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Rhamphoryncus] |
| 10:53 | | Thaqui [~Thaqui@121.98.166.ns-22683] has quit [Client exited] |
| 11:01 | | Attilla [~The.Attil@92.21.240.ns-3266] has joined #code |
| 11:01 | | mode/#code [+o Attilla] by ChanServ |
| 11:35 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-1382.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #Code |
| 11:35 | | mode/#code [+o gnolam] by ChanServ |
| 13:02 | | gnolaptop [~drwest@Nightstar-5235.netlogon.liu.se] has joined #Code |
| 13:21 | | gnolaptop [~drwest@Nightstar-5235.netlogon.liu.se] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 13:28 | | AnnoDomini [AnnoDomini@Nightstar-28863.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 13:31 | | AnnoDomini [AnnoDomini@Nightstar-28863.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #Code |
| 13:31 | | mode/#code [+o AnnoDomini] by ChanServ |
| --- Log closed Wed Sep 02 13:53:23 2009 |
| --- Log opened Wed Sep 02 13:53:39 2009 |
| 13:53 | | TheWatcher [~chris@Nightstar-29731.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #code |
| 13:53 | | Irssi: #code: Total of 18 nicks [12 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 6 normal] |
| 13:53 | | mode/#code [+o TheWatcher] by ChanServ |
| 13:54 | | Irssi: Join to #code was synced in 51 secs |
| 14:08 | | Consul [~Consul__@Nightstar-1744.dsl.sfldmi.ameritech.net] has joined #code |
| 14:08 | | mode/#code [+o Consul] by ChanServ |
| 14:15 | | * AnnoDomini tries to put together a new box. |
| 14:16 | <@AnnoDomini> | I think I'll start with a processor. |
| 14:27 | <@AnnoDomini> | I want AMD processors if I'm interested in moderately fast ones for cheap, yes? |
| 14:59 | | AnnoDomini [AnnoDomini@Nightstar-28863.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 15:00 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 15:06 | | AnnoDomini [AnnoDomini@Nightstar-29123.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #Code |
| 15:06 | | mode/#code [+o AnnoDomini] by ChanServ |
| 15:24 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 16:06 | | GeekSoldier [~Rob@Nightstar-8573.midstate.ip.cablemo.net] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 16:09 | | GeekSoldier [~Rob@Nightstar-8573.midstate.ip.cablemo.net] has joined #code |
| 16:09 | | mode/#code [+o GeekSoldier] by ChanServ |
| 16:43 | | Syloqs-AFH [Syloq@ServicesAdmin.Nightstar.Net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] |
| 17:36 | <@gnolam> | Signs that you are too tired and should take a break, #67: SVN commit messages taken from Svartby lyrics |
| 17:37 | < Namegduf> | Haha. |
| 17:44 | <@gnolam> | Revision 265: The most evil humus |
| 18:13 | | Derakon[work] [~Derakon@Nightstar-6042.ucsf.edu] has joined #code |
| 18:56 | | Finale [c0cb88fe@Nightstar-14595.mibbit.com] has joined #code |
| 18:56 | < Finale> | "It's hard to open an archived file called pandora.rar" |
| 18:56 | <@gnolam> | :D |
| 18:57 | < Namegduf> | It's .rar, I'd choose not to. :P |
| 18:58 | < Finale> | >_> |
| 18:58 | < Finale> | what's wrong with .rar? |
| 18:58 | <@gnolam> | What's the quote from BTW? :) |
| 18:59 | < Finale> | what's BTW? |
| 19:00 | | Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@Nightstar-3964.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #code |
| 19:03 | <@gnolam> | "By The Way" |
| 19:04 | < Finale> | ? |
| 19:04 | <@AnnoDomini> | BURN THE WITCH. |
| 19:04 | < Derakon[work]> | I need to set up a source control repository for my work at UCSF. For the moment, open-source sites like Google Code and Sourceforge are out (because we need to verify some rights issues). |
| 19:04 | < Derakon[work]> | So, git, hg, or svn? |
| 19:05 | < Derakon[work]> | I'm personally leaning to a distributed system like git or hg, in part because they may backups "straightforward" (by default anyone with the code checked out is running around with a backup), and in part because I've used hg for Jetblade and like it. |
| 19:05 | < Finale> | you're a git *flrrd* |
| 19:06 | < Namegduf> | git, because it's awesome. |
| 19:07 | < Namegduf> | Seriously, git's much superior to svn for a lot of use cases, but I can't compare it to hg, because I've never used hg. |
| 19:07 | < Finale> | I've ONLY heard of svn. and even that just in passing. |
| 19:07 | | * Finale shrugs. |
| 19:07 | < Namegduf> | git also has no disadvantages next to svn for the gain, so... |
| 19:11 | < Derakon[work]> | Hmm, this seems reasonably conclusive: http://etank.wordpress.com/2008/08/11/hg-vs-git/#comment-1402 |
| 19:12 | < Derakon[work]> | In short, hg and git have basically identical functionality at the level that you're likely to use on a regular basis. hg's UI is a bit simpler, and git has more capability of the you'll-rarely-need-it type. |
| 19:14 | | Finale [c0cb88fe@Nightstar-14595.mibbit.com] has left #code [] |
| 19:27 | < Namegduf> | Tis the 'rare' times that make the day, IMO, but then, I've already put the work into learning how to basically use git. |
| 19:29 | < Derakon[work]> | Yeah, I have to face the fact that biologists will sometimes need to access the repo. |
| 19:31 | < Namegduf> | Ah. |
| 19:31 | < Namegduf> | Hmm, directly? |
| 19:32 | < Namegduf> | You can't give them nice easy layman scripts for doing stuff? |
| 19:32 | < Namegduf> | Because non-technical sorts might struggle with most of those. |
| 19:34 | < Derakon[work]> | Let me put it this way: some of them have already in the past written code that's now part of the main project. |
| 19:34 | < Namegduf> | Ah, okay. |
| 19:34 | < Derakon[work]> | Eventually, yes, I hope to get to the point where if they need code written then I'm the one to write it. But we have to start from where we are, not where we want to be. |
| 19:35 | < Namegduf> | Well, hg has the advantage of being a bit simpler, and that you've already seen the interface and can judge, hopefully, whether it's good enough. |
| 19:35 | < Namegduf> | SVN I think could be fairly judged to be simpler yet, but is not distributed and all that. |
| 19:36 | < Derakon[work]> | Let's assume for now that I'm using hg. |
| 19:36 | < Derakon[work]> | Now I have to figure out what's required to set up an "official" repo that people can easily pull from and push to (if they have an account on the machine). |
| 19:38 | | * TheWatcher readsup |
| 19:38 | <@TheWatcher> | Avoid svn |
| 19:39 | <@gnolam> | Huh. I didn't know Scotsman husbandry was a feature of FontForge. |
| 19:39 | <@gnolam> | "Generate Mac Family" |
| 19:45 | <@TheWatcher> | Dera: my experience of working with academics not used to version control systems has made me completely discard cvs and svn for most of the development process. They don't understand it, find it clumbersome and awkward, and easily get confused, lost, mess it up, and generally flail over it. Which is, really, quite understandable, as I grow more convinced they were developed by someone high on crack. |
| 19:45 | <@TheWatcher> | Bad crack. Cut with builder's cement. |
| 19:47 | <@TheWatcher> | (we've moved all text, documentation, and binary image and animation storage to a mediawiki install, and I'm looking at git for all code handling) |
| 20:08 | <@gnolam> | And speaking of FontForge... |
| 20:08 | | * gnolam stabs FontForge IN THE FUCKING FACE. |
| 20:33 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I strongly encourage DVCS |
| 20:33 | < Rhamphoryncus> | non-distributed just means people you haven't given full access to don't get to use version control for their patches. It's stupid. |
| 20:35 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I can also testify that git's interface has given me enough stress that I'd want to ripe out my eyeballs and become a blind zucchini farmer. And I hate zucchini. |
| 21:10 | <@TheWatcher> | That good, eh? |
| 21:12 | | * TheWatcher eyes his brainmeats |
| 21:17 | <@gnolam> | ... call 911. |
| 21:17 | < Namegduf> | Rhamphoryncus: Really? |
| 21:17 | | * Namegduf has never had THAT much trouble with git. |
| 21:18 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Took me a while to figure out how I'm supposed to use it, no thanks to the docs. Mostly thanks to help in here |
| 21:18 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Also, it was a git mirror of svn or something, which changed the usage a bit |
| 21:19 | < Derakon[work]> | Gnolam: ? |
| 21:23 | <@gnolam> | [22:12] * TheWatcher eyes his brainmeats |
| 21:25 | < Derakon[work]> | Ahh. |
| 21:25 | < Derakon[work]> | I don't generally encourage people to say things like "call 911" on the remote chance that there actually is an emergency. |
| 21:27 | | * Derakon[work] starts trying to get this codebase into something that's buildable without needing to have access to the original dev's home directory. |
| 21:27 | < Derakon[work]> | % grep haase * | wc -l |
| 21:27 | < Derakon[work]> | 27 |
| 21:41 | < Derakon[work]> | Step back. I can't even build it when I *do* have access to his home directory. The makefile calls for a non-installed version of GCC, and when I fix that, it says "*** No rule to make target `/usr/lib/gcc-lib/i486-linux/3.3.5/include/stddef.h', needed by `clock.o'." |
| 21:41 | < Derakon[work]> | Ahh, C++. :\ |
| 21:43 | <@TheWatcher> | gnolam: that's jsut what I do when they start working on Crazy Notions |
| 21:43 | <@TheWatcher> | It's normal |
| 21:45 | < Derakon[work]> | The contents of clock.d: http://paste.ubuntu.com/264012/ |
| 21:45 | <@TheWatcher> | ... |
| 21:45 | < Derakon[work]> | I checked up on huge_val.h out of curiosity; it contains the official "big number" to return in certain error conditions from the standard math library. |
| 21:46 | < Derakon[work]> | It also says at the top that you should never refer to it directly; always go through math.h instead. |
| 21:46 | < Derakon[work]> | I'm tempted to excise clock.o from the code and see what happens. |
| 21:47 | < Derakon[work]> | Especially since I get the distinct impression that all it does is display a literal clock in the UI (both digital and analog, of course). |
| 21:51 | | * TheWatcher vaguely beats around various pieces of his grey matter that have started considering how to make a rcs using mediawiki and a perl client using MediaWiki::API |
| 21:55 | < Derakon[work]> | So what, each file is a page on the wiki? |
| 21:55 | < Derakon[work]> | What does this buy you over existing version control? Just an easy-to-browse source repo? |
| 21:56 | < Derakon[work]> | ...comment found: |
| 21:56 | < Derakon[work]> | / Internal functions used by the control. |
| 21:56 | < Derakon[work]> | / No time for documentation yet. Sorry. |
| 21:56 | < Derakon[work]> | (Should be double-slashes, but that's IRC for you~) |
| 21:59 | <@TheWatcher> | Dera: doesn't buy anything, I've no idea why it's decided to even bother with it, other than I've spent the last two days deep in the guts of the mediawiki api for other reasons |
| 22:00 | < Derakon[work]> | I wish I knew why there are all these .d files to go with the .hh and .cpp files. |
| 22:02 | < Derakon[work]> | It also appears that, rather than deal with figuring out which files depend on which other files, Sebastien simply declared that everything depends on everything else. |
| 22:02 | <@TheWatcher> | they're dependency caches |
| 22:03 | <@TheWatcher> | You could nuke them and rely on make's dependency generation, but if there's a lot of source or a crap makefile it may take a lot of time/miss dependencies |
| 22:07 | < Derakon[work]> | Danke. |
| 22:08 | < Derakon[work]> | It's not that there's a huge amount of source...but I can't speak to the quality of the makefile. I haven't dealt with them in years. |
| 22:16 | < Derakon[work]> | Representative line from a header file: "// #include "glView.h" - not needed if use 'class' keyword" |
| 22:22 | <@TheWatcher> | ... |
| 22:22 | | Vornicus-Latens is now known as Vornicus |
| 22:27 | < Rhamphoryncus> | apparently my d20's are 3% longer one direction than another |
| 22:28 | < Derakon[work]> | Lemme guess, you recently bought a set of calipers? |
| 22:29 | <@McMartin> | SOUL CALIPERS |
| 22:29 | < Derakon[work]> | That was *terrible*. |
| 22:30 | <@Vornicus> | :( |
| 22:41 | < Rhamphoryncus> | nope. Saw a video by Louis Zocchi explaining how they're molded, then worn down in a stone tumbler. The 1-20 axis is usually longer than the 9-12 axis.. stacked a bunch of mine up.. sure enough |
| 22:43 | <@Vornicus> | knew irecognized that name. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zocchihedron |
| 22:43 | < Rhamphoryncus> | took pictures, one with a tape measure, then examined in gimp. About 6 mm difference out of a stack of 200 mm (10 dice). 3% |
| 22:45 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Yeah. I'm not fond of the zoccihedron though. Not a good example of high quality random |
| 22:45 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Nor is his comparison to casino dice valid |
| 22:46 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Yes, sharp edges are more consistent than rounded, but they also make it more likely to tumble chaotically, rather than roll as a ball |
| 22:47 | < Rhamphoryncus> | But that only works for a game like craps, where you do roll them quite far (and bouncing off the end is the standard test) |
| 22:47 | < Rhamphoryncus> | gah, google just gave me an image of nudists playing craps. That's what I get for turning off safe search :P |
| 22:48 | | * Derakon[work] snerks. |
| 22:49 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Zocchi's d20's in his video stop rolling so quickly that I'd treat them more as a bounce than a roll |
| 22:50 | < Rhamphoryncus> | There's probably more randomness in how he picked them up and moved them in his hand than in how he "rolled" them |
| 23:06 | < Derakon[work]> | Heh... |
| 23:06 | < Derakon[work]> | One of the things I was brought onboard to help deal with was the problem of data retention. |
| 23:06 | < Derakon[work]> | Specifically, they're generating multi-gigabyte files that they can't store forever. |
| 23:07 | < Derakon[work]> | So I got an example file, and ran it through bzip2, getting a result that's 43% the size. |
| 23:07 | < Derakon[work]> | Got another file, compressed with bzip2, %b2% %b the size. |
| 23:07 | < Derakon[work]> | Er. %b 2% %b the size. |
| 23:07 | < Derakon[work]> | ... 2% the size? |
| 23:07 | < Derakon[work]> | There we go. |
| 23:07 | | * Derakon[work] is still learning to drive this IRC client. |
| 23:09 | <@McMartin> | That's a lot of redundancy |
| 23:10 | < Rhamphoryncus> | aye |
| 23:11 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I'm curious what the two files looked like |
| 23:11 | < Derakon[work]> | Well, they're binary, and I don't have a hex viewer handy. |
| 23:14 | < Rhamphoryncus> | hexdump? |
| 23:27 | < Derakon[work]> | Right, right. |
| 23:27 | | GeekSoldier [~Rob@Nightstar-8573.midstate.ip.cablemo.net] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 23:27 | < Derakon[work]> | They're light intensity maps, incidentally. A sequence of numbers that indicate the amount of light that fell on a given area. |
| 23:28 | | * AnnoDomini is writing the documentation for his future degree. |
| 23:28 | <@AnnoDomini> | Is it a bad thing that on two pages of text, there's only one sentence that's actually mine, and not a citation? :p |
| 23:30 | | GeekSoldier [~Rob@Nightstar-8573.midstate.ip.cablemo.net] has joined #code |
| 23:30 | | mode/#code [+o GeekSoldier] by ChanServ |
| --- Log closed Thu Sep 03 00:00:34 2009 |