| --- Log opened Wed May 13 00:00:26 2009 |
| 00:05 | | Reiv [~82d94c4d@Nightstar-29731.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #Code |
| 00:18 | | AnnoDomini [~farkoff@Nightstar-29106.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: No one can think without magic... though there are probably 2 mages for every thousand people, and one of them is most assuredly just a twit with a hat and a rabbit trying to score chicks with his magic missiles.] |
| 00:22 | <@McMartin> | "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." |
| 00:26 | < Reiv> | Thus making them revolutionary? >_> |
| 00:26 | < Reiv> | Hey, McM |
| 00:26 | < Reiv> | I am trying to write a parser in Haskell! |
| 00:26 | < Reiv> | It is really interesting, but breaking my brain. |
| 00:26 | <@Derakon> | Does Haskell have some kind of eval function? |
| 00:27 | <@Derakon> | (That is, "run the code contained in this string") |
| 00:27 | < Reiv> | Er. The Hugs interpreter runs code in a string, if that counts |
| 00:27 | < Reiv> | We're hand-writing a parser to parse TINY. |
| 00:28 | <@Derakon> | I mean like in Python you'd do eval("math.sqrt(81)") and get 9. |
| 00:28 | <@Derakon> | (Assuming math had been imported, of course) |
| 00:28 | <@McMartin> | You want "read". |
| 00:29 | < Reiv> | Ah, yes |
| 00:29 | <@McMartin> | Well, Derakon does. |
| 00:29 | <@Derakon> | Any language with eval(), I can make an interpreter for that language very easily~ |
| 00:29 | <@McMartin> | Reiv: Are you using Parsec for this or messing around with lines/words/etc.? |
| 00:30 | <@Derakon> | Do you mean TINY as in "Tiny BASIC"? |
| 00:30 | <@Derakon> | Oh, wait, no, you mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiny_programming_language |
| 00:30 | | mode/#code [-o Derakon] by ChanServ |
| 00:30 | < Reiv> | McM: Parsec? |
| 00:30 | | mode/#code [+o Derakon] by ChanServ |
| 00:30 | <@Derakon> | Oh, wait, no, you mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiny_programming_language |
| 00:31 | < Reiv> | Derakon: Correct. |
| 00:31 | < Reiv> | Cute lil' language that is nonetheless turing complete, and relatively unpainful to write parsers for. |
| 00:31 | <@Derakon> | Hm. That is tiny. |
| 00:33 | < Reiv> | My biggest issue is I'm just a bit stuck on how to start. |
| 00:38 | <@Derakon> | Idly, Entity, your existence reminded me of Blue Zombie (which used to exist at entity.comicgenesis.com). Apparently the creator of that comic has moved on to a new comic, which I found quite amusing, though it's hard to tell how recently it updated. |
| 00:38 | <@McMartin> | Parsec is a parser generator. |
| 00:38 | <@Derakon> | D'oh, mischan. |
| 00:38 | <@McMartin> | Monadic Combinator Parsers. |
| 00:38 | | * McMartin used it for some of the file formats in Project Euler, a process he described as "somewhat like swatting a fly with a hydrogen bomb" |
| 00:39 | <@McMartin> | http://legacy.cs.uu.nl/daan/download/parsec/parsec.html |
| 00:39 | <@McMartin> | Up yours, Blargh. |
| 00:39 | <@Derakon> | I saw it~ |
| 00:39 | | mode/#code [-o McMartin] by Derakon |
| 00:39 | | mode/#code [+o McMartin] by Derakon |
| 00:39 | <@McMartin> | You, like me, are not on Blargh~ |
| 00:39 | <@McMartin> | http://legacy.cs.uu.nl/daan/download/parsec/parsec.html |
| 00:40 | < Reiv> | ...cute. |
| 00:40 | < Reiv> | Though we're meant to code this thing by hand. |
| 00:40 | <@McMartin> | Strictly speaking, it's part of the standard library~ |
| 00:40 | <@McMartin> | But yeah, OK |
| 00:40 | | * Reiv laughs. This is true. |
| 00:40 | <@McMartin> | Just be aware that it exists if you ever try to do stuff later. |
| 00:41 | <@McMartin> | It does LL(k) with optional backtracking, which means that the kinds of things you do for hand-coded parsers work well in it |
| 00:42 | <@Derakon> | Idly, why is this channel +U anyway? |
| 00:42 | <@Derakon> | Are spambots much of a problem on Nightstar? |
| 00:46 | <@McMartin> | Anyway, Derakon, read is weaker than eval. |
| 00:46 | <@McMartin> | But it will convert from strings to integers, lists, &c. |
| 00:50 | < Reiv> | This channel is +U because there was a real problem of spambots and morons throwing nonsense links about.. |
| 00:50 | <@Derakon> | I think it's doing more harm than good right now. |
| 00:50 | < Reiv> | Bear in mind that this has ended up one of the biggest and most active public channels on the network... :) |
| 00:50 | <@McMartin> | If it can deduce from its usage what type that must be by the time it hits a function boundary, it's OK; otherwise you generally have to specify the type of the overall function. |
| 00:50 | <@Derakon> | Since it seems like every time someone pastes a link they say "Oh goddammit" and have to get re-opped or re-voiced. |
| 00:50 | < Reiv> | Aye. You've my permission to remove it. |
| 00:50 | <@MyCatVerbs> | I have a quick-ish solution. This channel is populated almost entirely by regulars, jah? |
| 00:51 | <@Derakon> | I can't remember the chanserv command. >.> |
| 00:51 | | mode/#code [+vvv Alek EvilDarkLord gnolam] by MyCatVerbs |
| 00:51 | | mode/#code [+vvv Reiv simontwo Vornicus] by MyCatVerbs |
| 00:51 | | mode/#code [+vvv Syloqs-AFH Tarinaky Namegduf] by MyCatVerbs |
| 00:51 | | ServerMode/#Code [-vvv Alek EvilDarkLord gnolam] by Blargh.CA.US.Nightstar.Net |
| 00:51 | | mode/#code [+v Rhamphoryncus] by MyCatVerbs |
| 00:51 | | mode/#code [+o EvilDarkLord] by ChanServ |
| 00:51 | | ServerMode/#Code [-vvv Reiv simontwo Vornicus] by Blargh.CA.US.Nightstar.Net |
| 00:51 | | ServerMode/#Code [-vvv Syloqs-AFH Tarinaky Namegduf] by Blargh.CA.US.Nightstar.Net |
| 00:51 | | ServerMode/#Code [-v Rhamphoryncus] by Blargh.CA.US.Nightstar.Net |
| 00:51 | | mode/#code [+o gnolam] by ChanServ |
| 00:51 | | mode/#code [+o Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| 00:51 | <@MyCatVerbs> | ...blassht. |
| 00:51 | < Reiv> | So give all regulars voice? Yeah, that's the origional goal. Trouble is, netsplits can desync who's an op and who isn't... |
| 00:51 | | * MyCatVerbs waves a fist at Chanserv. |
| 00:51 | | * Derakon high-fives MCV. |
| 00:51 | < Reiv> | Which is precisely why it's 'more harm than good'. |
| 00:51 | <@MyCatVerbs> | VOP? |
| 00:51 | <@MyCatVerbs> | Anyone mind if I alter the VOP list? |
| 00:52 | <@McMartin> | Also does not resist netsplits. |
| 00:52 | <@McMartin> | Blargh loses touch with Deep, concludes that NOW ALL DIE. |
| 00:52 | < Reiv> | MCV: Half the people are already on it. |
| 00:52 | < Reiv> | We've just lost ops on reconnect or netsplits or whatever |
| 00:52 | <@MyCatVerbs> | Reiv: no, half the people are on the AOP list. The VOP list only contains two bots. |
| 00:52 | <@McMartin> | Or we, you know haven't. |
| 00:52 | | * McMartin was an op when Blargh declared he couldn't post links. |
| 00:53 | <@McMartin> | Deep knows the score |
| 00:53 | < Reiv> | Right. |
| 00:53 | < Reiv> | What McM said; it's desyncs that are causing the issue, not a lack of initial permissions. |
| 00:53 | | * Derakon digs through chanserv's docs, cannot find how to set channel modes. |
| 00:53 | <@MyCatVerbs> | Hang on, you don't lose permissions on the IRCD when Chanserv dies, do you? |
| 00:54 | < Reiv> | No. |
| 00:54 | < Reiv> | But Chanserv might not recognise you. |
| 00:54 | <@MyCatVerbs> | S'okay. Re-identify afterwards. |
| 00:54 | < Reiv> | '/mode #Code -U |
| 00:54 | <@Derakon> | ...that's it, really? |
| 00:54 | <@Derakon> | MCV: that's a pain. |
| 00:54 | | mode/#code [-U] by Derakon |
| 00:54 | <@MyCatVerbs> | You lose your nick anyway. |
| 00:54 | <@Derakon> | Thanks, Reiv. |
| 00:55 | < Reiv> | Modes are simple. :) |
| 00:55 | <@Derakon> | Um, no, you don't. |
| 00:55 | <@MyCatVerbs> | When NickServ decides to tear you a new one. |
| 00:55 | <@Derakon> | Because all the services are on Deepthought's side. |
| 00:55 | < Reiv> | No, you lose your nick when *nickserv* doesn't recognise you. |
| 00:55 | <@Derakon> | Blargh splits, comes back, says "NONE OF THESE PEOPLE ARE OPS", and then complains when you try to send a URL to the channel. |
| 00:55 | <@MyCatVerbs> | And NickServ is on the same machine as ChanServ, no? |
| 00:55 | < Reiv> | On a rejoin if nickserv hasn't already identified you, Chanserv doesn't recognise you. Given they join simultaneously... |
| 00:56 | < Namegduf> | MyCatVerbs: I think they're both psuedousers presented by the same program. |
| 00:56 | <@MyCatVerbs> | Yes. So the netsplit heals, both services come back, nickserv makes like Pete Townsend and screams "WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU?" and everyone loses both their nicks and their ops. |
| 00:56 | <@Derakon> | Your theory is flawed. |
| 00:56 | <@Derakon> | Seeing as I haven't had to ident myself in weeks and I'm still opped here. |
| 00:57 | <@Derakon> | But I regularly get complaints that I'm not allowed to send URLs. |
| 00:57 | <@MyCatVerbs> | And nickserv has not annihilated your nick? Strange. |
| 00:57 | <@Derakon> | I've been online since April 28th, which I think was the last time I rebooted. |
| 00:58 | < Reiv> | MCV: Chanserv *sets* ops. |
| 00:58 | <@McMartin> | MCV: Nickserv and Chanserv are fully understanding what's going on. |
| 00:58 | < Reiv> | This is distinct from an individual server knowing if you're opped or not. |
| 00:58 | < Reiv> | (desyncs are fun~) |
| 00:58 | <@McMartin> | The problem is that servers that can't talk to Nickserv or Chanserv amongst others conclude that you're not worthy, and suppress your messages for only the users on that server. |
| 00:59 | <@McMartin> | Hence why Derakon saw my first link. |
| 00:59 | <@McMartin> | Because he wasn't on Blargh. |
| 00:59 | <@McMartin> | And because I wasn't either. |
| 00:59 | <@McMartin> | If I were, it would not have been sendable. |
| 00:59 | <@Derakon> | Anyway, problem solved. |
| 00:59 | < Reiv> | Yep. :) |
| 00:59 | <@MyCatVerbs> | Ah. That is... stupid. Why does +U check against services instead of just the current +o/+v state for that channel? |
| 00:59 | <@Derakon> | If spambots become a bigger issue than real people wanting to send URLs, we can revisit this issue. |
| 01:00 | | * Reiv sighs |
| 01:00 | <@McMartin> | MCV: It doesn't. |
| 01:00 | <@McMartin> | The fact that Nick/Chanserv are on a server with correct information means they don't attack. |
| 01:00 | <@McMartin> | The fact that other servers are wrong means they misbehave. |
| 01:01 | <@Derakon> | IOW, if you were on Blargh, you'd see nobody with ops or voice when the netsplit ends. |
| 01:01 | < Reiv> | Aye. The servers get mixed up on who has what, and they don't actually compare notes. |
| 01:01 | <@Derakon> | (And, potentially, see unopped people kicking other people~) |
| 01:01 | <@MyCatVerbs> | McMartin: but why do the other servers end up thinking you're not opped or voiced? |
| 01:02 | <@Derakon> | They don't! |
| 01:02 | <@Derakon> | It's Blargh. |
| 01:02 | <@McMartin> | Because there's a desync. |
| 01:02 | | * Reiv can see half a dozen users here that have no ops. |
| 01:02 | <@McMartin> | Derakon: Blargh is the aforementioned "other server". |
| 01:02 | <@McMartin> | With the wrong values. |
| 01:02 | <@Derakon> | Oh, right. |
| 01:02 | <@McMartin> | Blargh thought I wasn't opped. Blargh was wrong. |
| 01:02 | <@MyCatVerbs> | McMartin: you mean Blargh... loses its shit so completely that it actually has the wrong state? |
| 01:02 | < Reiv> | Chalain, jerith, MCV, Reiver, Syloq should all have ops and don't from this end. *shrug* |
| 01:02 | <@McMartin> | That's what a desync is. |
| 01:03 | <@MyCatVerbs> | McMartin: caress me gently with a rake, I'm sorry. |
| 01:03 | < Reiv> | McM didn't either till he re-opped himself, which told all the servers at once that MCM HAS OPS GUYS, thus cleaning the desync. |
| 01:03 | <@Derakon> | I see Alek, Namegduf, Reiv, Rhamphoryncus, simontwo, and Tarinaky as not being opped (not counting sysops). |
| 01:03 | < Reiv> | MCV: Bingo. Blargh and Troika are both capable of this. |
| 01:04 | <@MyCatVerbs> | McMartin: how on Earth does Blargh get desync'd? |
| 01:04 | < Reiv> | Deep has Services, which means that the most it does is have NickServ have a heart attack on reboot. |
| 01:04 | < Reiv> | By falling off the network, mostly. That's what netsplits are. |
| 01:04 | <@McMartin> | I'm not actually clear as to why specific servers seem to lose their shit more often, |
| 01:05 | <@MyCatVerbs> | When Nickserv disappears, the rest of the daemons are supposed to just carry on with the state that they had prior to the netsplit, rather than suddenly deciding that nobody has ops anywhere. |
| 01:05 | < Reiv> | While in a netsplit state, any changes in state aren't propigated - if you join Deep and get opped, when Blargh rejoins it sees you and goes 'oh hai', but /doesn't know you'd been opped/. |
| 01:05 | <@MyCatVerbs> | At least, that's what most IRC networks do. |
| 01:05 | < Namegduf> | The daemons will forget ops for remote users which no longer exist. |
| 01:05 | | * Reiv cough slightly. |
| 01:05 | < Namegduf> | They should rerecognise these ops when the users are reintroduced during netjoin. At least for most IRC networks. |
| 01:06 | < Reiv> | Blargh appears to have a relatively fragile routing solution on interposing nodes. |
| 01:06 | <@MyCatVerbs> | Reiv: I gather that state changes won't be propogated, but isn't the IRC daemon supposed to be written re-sync state when the netsplit is resolved? |
| 01:06 | <@MyCatVerbs> | s/written/written to/ |
| 01:06 | < Namegduf> | It should. |
| 01:06 | <@MyCatVerbs> | It'd seem a fairly logical step, given that the RFC specifies that all servers must know the status of all users at all times. |
| 01:06 | < Reiv> | Troika is on extremely elderly hardware; but the /main/ reason it goes down is because Something Happened To Houston(tm). |
| 01:07 | < Reiv> | (Which is why when Troika goes down, it's in the habit of going down hard - we have to wait for the hurricane/power outage/etc to get fixed~) |
| 01:08 | < Reiv> | Deep, meanwhile, is generally our main workhorse, but it's on shared hardware on a shared connection that we know is used by several other IRC networks. |
| 01:08 | < Reiv> | So its main heart attack is when someone is DDoSing /someone elses/ network, and it took the server farm out. |
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| 01:09 | < Reiv> | Deeps other main problem is that in the event of a network meltdown, it tends to be the one that shoulders the brunt of reconnections; this can inadvertently DDoS it with everyone trying to log back in. >_> |
| 01:10 | < Reiv> | So, uh, yeah. We do what we can; and are very glad this is a multi-server network. :p |
| 01:10 | <@MyCatVerbs> | RAIBDS. |
| 01:11 | <@MyCatVerbs> | Redundant Array of Inexpensive, Buggered, Ditzy Servers. |
| 01:11 | <@MyCatVerbs> | But we luff it all the same. <3 |
| 01:11 | < Reiv> | It used to be that Deepthought was the #1 hub; in recent times that's been taken over by Troika on the basis that when it's up, it's the most stable. (It's just when it's down, they have to unflood the server room. :p) |
| 01:14 | < Reiv> | (Also the minor historical quirk that I used to be a locop who could only connect servers to Troika, so when they went down and I was the only one around, the network started magically being Troika-centric... people got used to it.~) |
| 01:14 | < Namegduf> | Haha. |
| 01:19 | < Reiv> | Guh. PLSQL hates me. Going home to work on it there. |
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| 02:09 | | mode/#code [+oooooo Alek Namegduf Rhamphoryncus simontwo Syloqs-AFH Tarinaky] by Reiver |
| 02:09 | | * Derakon quirks an eyebrow at Reiver. |
| 02:09 | | mode/#code [+o DiceBot] by Derakon |
| 02:09 | <@Derakon> | :p |
| 02:09 | | mode/#code [-o DiceBot] by Reiver |
| 02:09 | <@Reiver> | Bots get voice. :p |
| 02:10 | <@Derakon> | Bah. |
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| 03:38 | | * Vornicus fiddles with his titleoid page. |
| 04:08 | | * Vornicus finds the things he needs to do this. Thinks he'll be just fine. |
| 04:55 | | * Vornicus finishes lobby.php. |
| 05:02 | <@Vornicus> | Despite hockey. |
| 05:03 | <@Vornicus> | (go ducks!) |
| 05:19 | <@Vornicus> | note that troika and deep will share op knowledge. |
| 05:19 | <@Vornicus> | Blargh just doesn't seem to like it. |
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| 09:56 | | * TheWatcher readsup, notes that 'titleoid' makes him think of some cheesy sci-fi B movie about the Attack Of The Killer Headlines From Outer Space! |
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| 17:39 | | * Vornicus-Latens examines his design. |
| 17:40 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | I need to figure out a way to validate ability score choices on the client side. |
| 17:41 | <@Derakon> | Put an onsubmit onto the form that executes a Javascript function. It returns true if all form fields are good, or false otherwise (and modifies the page to indicate what's wrong). |
| 17:43 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | I was thinking about that, but I think I would prefer "you can't submit until it's acceptable" - which is important because the acceptable range is smallish. |
| 17:44 | <@Derakon> | In that case, you'll need to be running form validation when the user inputs values instead. |
| 17:44 | <@Derakon> | Which means putting triggers on each text field. |
| 17:44 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | Indeed. |
| 17:44 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | Not a large problem. |
| 17:45 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | Actually looking at it I'm looking at combo boxes. |
| 17:45 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | But now it is showertime and then worktime and then cleantheoldhousetime and then dinnertime and then backtoworkonthistime. |
| 17:46 | <@Derakon> | Heh. |
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| 23:00 | | * TheWatcher eyes this, is going to have fun |
| 23:03 | <@TheWatcher> | Maybe I should have tried this ajax suggestion dropdown lark on a single input box, rather than 30 simultaneously... |
| 23:05 | | * Derakon facepalms. |
| 23:07 | | Namegduf_ [namegduf@86.6.85.ns-27218] has joined #code |
| 23:07 | <@TheWatcher> | Hey, doing it the easy way is just boring~ |
| 23:12 | | * TheWatcher eyes this |
| 23:12 | <@TheWatcher> | Or, I could just blatantly abuse this: http://www.brandspankingnew.net/specials/ajax_autosuggest/ajax_autosuggest_autoc omplete.html |
| 23:22 | | Namegduf [namegduf@86.6.85.ns-27218] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] |
| 23:31 | <@Derakon> | Ahh, GameDev.net denizens. |
| 23:31 | <@Derakon> | "I am building a cross-platform 3D Game Engine. Is it bad to use STL?" |
| 23:31 | <@Derakon> | The presence of that question indicates that you should not be doing that activity. |
| 23:32 | <@TheWatcher> | Heheh |
| 23:37 | | Reiv [~82d94c4d@Nightstar-29731.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #Code |
| 23:37 | < Reiv> | No-one knows PL/SQL by chance? ?? |
| 23:38 | <@TheWatcher> | Not to any great extent, sorry |
| 23:41 | <@McMartin> | Derakon: How many people recommended he use 100% assembler? |
| 23:41 | | Namegduf_ is now known as Namegduf |
| 23:41 | <@TheWatcher> | Not enough~ |
| 23:41 | | * TheWatcher flrrrd |
| 23:42 | <@Derakon> | I did not bother opening the thread. It had over 40 posts. |
| 23:42 | <@McMartin> | It's adorable how people still use that phrase. |
| 23:42 | <@Derakon> | I did comment in another thread where a self-described newbie was asking how to pack all his tile data into one byte per tile. |
| 23:42 | <@McMartin> | It hasn't been true since the 90s. If then. |
| 23:42 | <@TheWatcher> | Dera: ... whut |
| 23:42 | <@Derakon> | Which phrase? |
| 23:42 | <@McMartin> | "100% assembler" |
| 23:42 | <@Derakon> | Ahh. |
| 23:42 | <@McMartin> | Given that kernel calls are going to something written in, you know, C. Or C++. Or PL/I. |
| 23:43 | <@Derakon> | TW: I should copy a "no premature optimization" spiel off somewhere so I can paste it in as needed. |
| 23:43 | <@Derakon> | Heh. |
| 23:43 | <@McMartin> | Or, for that matter, Pascal. |
| 23:43 | <@TheWatcher> | Dera: I always just quote Knuth in that situation |
| 23:43 | <@McMartin> | IIRC the early Apple OSes that weren't raw assembler were in fact Pascal dialects. |
| 23:43 | <@Derakon> | The "Game Development" subforum at GD.net seems to be a pretty even split between "How do I do collision detection", "How do I prematurely optimize this function", "How do I avoid using this useful library", and "everything else". |
| 23:44 | <@McMartin> | At least that first question can be interesting. |
| 23:44 | <@Derakon> | "For Beginners" also has a lot of "What language should I use". I mean, a lot. |
| 23:44 | <@Derakon> | McM: yeah, only the first half-dozen times or so. :\ |
| 23:44 | <@McMartin> | Speaking of which, I hear pyglet is leeging awesome. |
| 23:44 | <@Derakon> | Python OpenGL? |
| 23:44 | <@McMartin> | (re: languages) |
| 23:44 | <@McMartin> | Yeah. |
| 23:45 | <@Derakon> | ...I'm getting too good at deciphering programming names. :\ |
| 23:45 | <@McMartin> | Hee |
| 23:45 | <@McMartin> | It's essentially pygame with the priorities reversed. |
| 23:45 | <@Derakon> | Make it fast, then easy? |
| 23:45 | | * TheWatcher notes that's one of the reasons he avoid GD.net. Too much effort to sift through the piles of crap and idiots to find anything useful. |
| 23:45 | <@McMartin> | "Primarily an OpenGL wrapper; provide 2D and device support secondarily" |
| 23:46 | <@Derakon> | Ah. |
| 23:46 | <@McMartin> | (And the 2D is isometric quads) |
| 23:46 | | * Derakon nods. |
| 23:46 | <@Derakon> | Those do make scaling, rotating, etc. very easy. |
| 23:49 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 23:52 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| --- Log closed Thu May 14 00:00:41 2009 |