| --- Log opened Thu May 07 00:00:55 2009 |
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| 00:40 | <@Vornicus> | How to tell you're working in a too-heavy environment. |
| 00:40 | <@Vornicus> | It takes 5 minutes to write all the code and do all the dev-UI manipulations you need for your homework. |
| 00:40 | <@Vornicus> | It then takes 10 minutes to do all the shit that you need to do to make it acceptable to turn in. |
| 00:41 | <@Derakon> | ...? |
| 00:41 | <@Derakon> | Oh. |
| 00:42 | < simontwo> | like what? |
| 00:44 | <@Vornicus> | Like make sure no line crosses 80 characters, for instance. |
| 00:45 | <@TheWatcher> | Yeah, that's one I've never really got, or had any sympathy for |
| 00:46 | <@Vornicus> | I do have some sympathy for "keep your lines sanely short", but a hard limit is just a pain. |
| 00:47 | | * TheWatcher is used to maximum lines in the ~200 range, which still fit on screen |
| 00:47 | <@Vornicus> | I actually scaled up my text editor so I fit about 100 characters across. |
| 00:48 | <@Derakon> | And I do all my work on 80-column terminals... |
| 00:48 | <@Vornicus> | And anything that just plain blows past it? Is probably too long to use. |
| 00:48 | <@Vornicus> | Or at least understand reasonably quickly. |
| 00:48 | <@TheWatcher> | Dera: how? |
| 00:48 | <@Derakon> | Generally I find that anything longer than that either should be broken across lines (e.g. complicated conditionals) or should be refactored (e.g. indenting eight levels). |
| 00:49 | <@Derakon> | TW: I assume you mean something other than the literal meaning, but I can't guess what you're after. Longer question, please? |
| 00:51 | <@TheWatcher> | I would just find that sort of thing insanely restrictive, is all. When I'm coding, I have.. well, here |
| 00:53 | <@TheWatcher> | http://fleet.starforge.co.uk/emacs.jpg - that's pretty much how I normally have things set up. I just like lots of space to work in |
| 00:55 | <@TheWatcher> | Being stuck in an 80 column terminal for anything other than config tweaking, admin, and little bits of shell script would drive me nuts |
| 00:55 | <@Derakon> | And here's my setup: http://derakon.dyndns.org/~chriswei/temp2/workspace.png |
| 00:55 | <@TheWatcher> | ..nuttier.. |
| 00:56 | <@TheWatcher> | Yeah, that'd make me feel claustrophobic, I think |
| 00:57 | | * Derakon shrugs. |
| 00:57 | <@Derakon> | "Different strokes for different folks" is the phrase, I believe. |
| 00:57 | <@TheWatcher> | Each to their own |
| 00:57 | <@TheWatcher> | Heh |
| 00:57 | <@Derakon> | That works too. |
| 00:59 | | * Vornicus hunts up a place to post this. |
| 01:00 | <@Derakon> | Oh, since this place is actually active now, any thoughts on this? http://paste.ubuntu.com/165681/ |
| 01:00 | <@Derakon> | It's a "file format" for describing how sequences of images should be handled as animations. |
| 01:03 | | * TheWatcher ponders advance and move |
| 01:04 | <@TheWatcher> | I assume advance is the speed to move to the next frame? |
| 01:04 | <@Derakon> | Yes. |
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| 01:04 | | mode/#code [+o GeekSoldier] by ChanServ |
| 01:05 | | * TheWatcher fingertappity |
| 01:06 | <@TheWatcher> | It's late, and my headbones are nowhere near optimal right now, but there's something not gelling in there regarding how climb has that positional transformation over time, but run doesn't |
| 01:06 | <@Derakon> | It's not an "over time" thing; at the end of the animation you teleport to the new location. |
| 01:07 | <@Derakon> | Here's the animation in question: http://derakon.dyndns.org/~chriswei/games/jbrl/models/protoclimb1b.gif |
| 01:07 | <@Derakon> | My options, AFAICT, are either to use the animation as it is and teleport the player when it finishes, or modify the animation to be done "in-place" and move the player throughout the animation. The latter approach would require veeeeeery careful movement though to keep the player from getting "out of synch" with the terrain. |
| 01:07 | <@TheWatcher> | (very good, the hands work a lot better than the one I say yesterday) |
| 01:08 | <@TheWatcher> | *saw |
| 01:08 | | * Derakon nods. "Most of the time the hands won't be visible anyway." |
| 01:09 | <@TheWatcher> | The teleport thing would work fine, I expect. Provided that your collision detection behaves sensibly. |
| 01:10 | <@Derakon> | I'll have to do a manual "is the terrain reasonable for climbing up" check, but I knew that anyway. I figure the player will be invulnerable for the duration of the animation just to keep things simpler. |
| 01:10 | <@Derakon> | If it's a fast animation (<.5s) then it shouldn't be a problem. |
| 01:13 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 01:14 | | * TheWatcher[T-2] nods |
| 01:14 | <@TheWatcher[T-2]> | Fairynuff |
| 01:16 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
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| 02:27 | <@Derakon> | Oooh, sudden brainfire for my board game idea. |
| 02:27 | <@Derakon> | The big problem is resource symmetry -- everyone generally has the same amount of resources, right? |
| 02:28 | <@Derakon> | So what if I made there be a sharply limited amount of resources? Like 5 money and 5 metal, that everyone has to fight over. |
| 02:28 | <@Derakon> | Every time you spend money, it goes back into the general pool. |
| 02:28 | <@Derakon> | And gaining resources then becomes trying to take as much from the pool as you can. |
| 02:28 | <@Vornicus> | A common thing in games - but not one you see actually hit that often when the resources are the same. |
| 02:29 | <@Derakon> | What, resource symmetry? |
| 02:29 | <@Vornicus> | I've never seen Monopoly run out of houses or hotels or money. |
| 02:29 | <@Derakon> | Ah. |
| 02:29 | <@Vornicus> | (I have seen Power Grid run out of resources though) |
| 02:29 | <@Derakon> | Puerto Rico regularly runs out of crop goods in 5-player games (preventing players with production capacity from realizing their full potential). |
| 02:29 | <@Derakon> | But I mean sharply limited. |
| 02:31 | <@Derakon> | I may need to ditch the "everyone does the action" feature, but I think I can make a better game out of this... |
| 02:32 | <@Derakon> | Mines would then represent your ability to claim resources from the bank...any time you spend to destroy another player's building, the person following you has the opportunity to take the resources you just spent and (on a later turn) use them against you. |
| 02:51 | | Vornicus is now known as Vornicus-Latens |
| 02:52 | | * Derakon ponders using "amount of resources spent" as a measure of how long the player has to wait until their next turn...probably too complicated. |
| 02:58 | <@Derakon> | Ah hah. Better idea. When you spend resources, instead of going into the bank, they get redistributed to the other players based on who currently has the fewest resources. |
| 03:00 | <@Derakon> | ...actually, no. You can spend a turn to bump your share of resources up. |
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| 07:07 | < simontwo> | does anyone here know what is meant by "a turing-complete type system?" |
| 07:08 | <@McMartin> | As in "C++ has a..."? |
| 07:09 | <@McMartin> | C++ is claimed to, which is *almost* true; taken literally, it means that for any computable boolean function, there is an equivalent C++ program that typechecks if and only if that function returns true on that input. |
| 07:09 | <@McMartin> | What's meant by it is that any computable function can be made to happen at compilation time thanks to template expansion. |
| 07:10 | <@Derakon> | I remember hearing about an IF game that was implemented through a labyrinthine set of compiler errors on templated classes. |
| 07:10 | <@McMartin> | For example, here's a program that computes the Fibonacci numbers at compile time: http://www.stanford.edu/~mcmartin/fibofdoom.cc |
| 07:11 | <@McMartin> | You'll note I said "almost true" - actual production C++ compilers will typically abort after some number of expansion steps. 17 is IIRC the minimum to be standards-compliant |
| 07:14 | < simontwo> | McMartin, yes, or "Standard ML has a ...". thanks for the input! it resembled one idea I had of it. |
| 07:15 | <@McMartin> | Pretty sure ML's is not. |
| 07:18 | < simontwo> | could you +U me? |
| 07:18 | < simontwo> | or +v, whichever works. |
| 07:18 | | mode/#code [+o simontwo] by jerith |
| 07:19 | <@simontwo> | I found a debate on it. http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/3045 -- apparently one could argue that it's true, but it's extremely impractical. |
| 07:20 | <@McMartin> | Hm. I could have sworn that ML's type inference algorithm was not only not Turing-Complete, but provably decidable |
| 07:22 | <@McMartin> | The link you give mentions "Ceyenne" and "Qi" as examples. I'd have to dig up my old textbooks to quote chapter-and-verse, but I'm over 99% sure that neither are complete |
| 07:22 | <@simontwo> | okay. |
| 07:22 | <@McMartin> | Because IIRC they are decidable and as such could not express functions that cause a Turing machine to occasionally never terminate. |
| 07:23 | <@McMartin> | (in the type system. You can write infinite loops in ML and Haskell all day long, and, in fact, in Haskell there are occasionally legitimate reasons to do so) |
| 07:25 | | * jerith has written perfectly legitimate infinite loops in several languages. |
| 07:25 | <@jerith> | Embedded systems tend to require them. ;-) |
| 07:25 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 07:25 | <@McMartin> | I dunno, I consider RESET an input~ |
| 07:25 | <@jerith> | (Technically, there is an exit condition. Remove power from the device.) |
| 07:26 | <@McMartin> | (Don't most microprocessors have a pin that when brought high/low force the IP to a fixed address? |
| 07:26 | <@jerith> | Not the ones I've used. |
| 07:27 | <@simontwo> | my webcam does that. |
| 07:27 | <@jerith> | Although... |
| 07:27 | | * McMartin hasn't really used any chip more recent than a z80, but it does have the RESET pin, as does the 65xx series |
| 07:28 | <@McMartin> | On 65xx it's essentially an NMI that also happens to be thrown on poweron. |
| 07:28 | <@jerith> | Hmm, some of them may actually have a reset pin, but it's pretty much equivalent to removing power. |
| 07:28 | <@McMartin> | Well, presumably the rest of your state is unchanged. |
| 07:29 | <@McMartin> | This lets you have secret codes like "Press RESET 13 times" |
| 07:30 | <@jerith> | The problem is that state tends to be undefined at startup. |
| 07:30 | <@jerith> | So if your reset address is the same as your poweron address, you can't rely on anything. |
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| 07:31 | <@simontwo> | <j4pg49 |
| 07:31 | <@simontwo> | (rat attack) |
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| 08:08 | <@McMartin> | jerith: The NES Cart of Gradius works around this by writing a magic code into a chunk of memory; if it's not there, it assumes it's a hard-reboot. |
| 08:12 | <@simontwo> | go to work... learn haskell... tough choice. |
| 08:24 | <@jerith> | Go learn Haskell at work? |
| 08:28 | <@simontwo> | jerith, unfortunately work = fixing bugs in drupal modules and literally dealing with computer illiterate communists. |
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| 08:30 | <@jerith> | Have Drupal call out to HAskell modules? |
| 08:42 | <@simontwo> | I did that in my Java assignments last semester, but somehow I don't dare challenge my employer. |
| 09:00 | <@gnolam> | Hah. It's finally official. |
| 09:00 | <@gnolam> | Duke Nukem Forever Did Not Finish. |
| 09:00 | <@gnolam> | http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/58519 |
| --- Log closed Thu May 07 09:16:39 2009 |
| --- Log opened Thu May 07 09:16:44 2009 |
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| 15:05 | <@gnolam> | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/07/verity_stob_cplusplus/ |
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| 15:22 | <@Consul> | That's not the best snark I've ever read. It does, however, do an admiral job of making me fear C++0x. |
| 15:42 | <@gnolam> | Pretty much my thoughts. |
| 15:42 | <@gnolam> | But I've been wondering what the hell that committee has been smoking for a while now. |
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| 16:13 | <@Consul> | One of these days, I'll learn to spell "admirable." |
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| 19:57 | <@Consul> | Remember that hard-real-time scripting language I was asking about? http://eel.olofson.net/ |
| 19:57 | <@Consul> | What? |
| 19:57 | <@Consul> | It's blocking me sending a URL because I don't have voice. |
| 19:57 | | mode/#code [+v Consul] by Consul |
| 19:57 | | ServerMode/#Code [-v Consul] by Troika.TX.US.Nightstar.Net |
| 19:57 | <@Consul> | Remember that hard-real-time scripting language I was asking about? http://eel.olofson.net/ |
| 19:58 | <@Consul> | And if I try to give myself voice, the server takes it away immediately. |
| 19:58 | <@gnolam> | Desync. I see your URL just fine. |
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| 19:59 | | mode/#code [+o Consul] by gnolam, ChanServ |
| 19:59 | <@Consul> | Interesting... |
| 19:59 | <@gnolam> | Re-authenticate yourself with nickserv? |
| 19:59 | <@Consul> | Well, it accepted me. |
| 19:59 | <@Consul> | http://eel.olofson.net/ |
| 19:59 | <@Consul> | Hey, thanks. |
| 20:00 | <@Consul> | I'd forgotten that can happen. |
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| 21:32 | <@Consul> | You know what would make this BSOD screensaver really fun? If it occasionally delayed reacting to a mouse movement or keystroke for a few seconds. |
| 21:33 | <@Consul> | Just long enough for the panic to set in. |
| 22:28 | | * gnolam realizes he's sleep deprived. |
| 22:29 | <@gnolam> | I just started giggling when I realized that the // HACKHACK comment I just put in could be pronounced "SLASH SLASH HACK HACK". |
| 22:30 | <@gnolam> | In my defense, the mental image /was/ pretty funny. |
| --- Log closed Fri May 08 00:00:09 2009 |