| --- Log opened Sun Apr 26 00:00:15 2009 |
| 01:11 | | * TheWatcher eyes DBI, wtfs |
| 01:17 | | * TheWatcher facepalms as he realises he's missed a '_' |
| 01:18 | <@TheWatcher> | And there, session code finally working |
| 01:19 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 01:22 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 01:30 | <@McMartin> | Oh hey. Nelson published the language I7 is written in |
| 01:30 | <@McMartin> | http://inform7.com/sources/inweb/ |
| 01:35 | <@McMartin> | My God, it's written in Literate *Perl* |
| 01:36 | < Alek> | ... |
| 01:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | Pfft |
| 01:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | "@ |inweb| is itself written as an |inweb| web. This hazardous circularity is |
| 01:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | traditional in literate-programming circles, much as people like to make |
| 01:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | compilers compile themselves: after all, if even the authors aren't willing |
| 01:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | to trust the code, why should anyone else? |
| 01:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | ... |
| 01:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | In my case, though, it was done simply because |inweb| had become that most |
| 01:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | evil of all system tools: a 4000-line Perl script resulting from bursts of |
| 01:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | careless invention every few months. When Woody Allen said that all |
| 01:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | literature is a footnote to Faust, he probably wasn't thinking of the Camel |
| 01:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | book, Perl's notorious manual, but he should have been." |
| 01:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | I do like the fact that it has a module named "The Swarm", though. |
| 01:40 | < Namegduf> | Perl is odd, I'm going to stick with it a bit longer before I judge it. |
| 01:41 | <@Derakon> | Perl is very good at a few specific domains. |
| 01:41 | <@Derakon> | Two of those are string processing and making unreadable code. |
| 01:41 | < Namegduf> | Sounds right. |
| 01:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | And if you want string processing, awk is also very good at that ?? |
| 01:41 | | * Derakon facepalms. |
| 01:43 | < Namegduf> | I'm still trying to see if I can pick up a coding style that makes it pretty. |
| 01:44 | < Namegduf> | I have a 602-like written-from-scratch Perl script here, it isn't pretty right now. |
| 01:44 | <@Derakon> | Heh. |
| 01:44 | < Namegduf> | I sorta tried to use a C++ style I adopted from elsewhere with it. |
| 01:44 | <@Derakon> | I've yet to make a script more than a couple hundred lines that wasn't ugly, unless it used OO techniques. |
| 01:44 | < Namegduf> | But... with a couple of "this is the Perl way of doing it" things. |
| 01:45 | <@Derakon> | That's more or less how I write Python. |
| 01:45 | < Namegduf> | I'm not convinced it worked, but moving towards Perl made it more ugly. |
| 01:45 | <@Derakon> | There's nothing wrong with that way of coding. Practically everyone knows how to read C/C++, so your code should be maintainable by anyone. |
| 01:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | Personally, I am of the opinion that Perl is an intrinsically ugly language; it takes a great effort of will to emit perl code that is not ugly, let alone good-looking. |
| 01:47 | < Namegduf> | I'm actually pretty agreeable. I'm working on the not ugly thing. |
| 01:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | But then, I have a great aversion to type warts especially. |
| 01:47 | <@McMartin> | I'm going to have to read the inweb document |
| 01:47 | <@McMartin> | It may be the most readable perl script ever, being that it is in fact written in TeX with perl annotations~ |
| 01:47 | <@Derakon> | ;.; |
| 01:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | I really need to learn [La]TeX someday. |
| 01:48 | < Namegduf> | If Perl supported C++ comments, it'd gain pretty points automatically. |
| 01:48 | <@McMartin> | That said, both forms of Literate Haskell are entirely reasonable and if I ever do anything really serious with it, that's how I'll use it. |
| 01:48 | < Namegduf> | I hate #-comments |
| 01:48 | <@Derakon> | Is there something wrong with shell script-style...ah. |
| 01:48 | <@McMartin> | (They're command-line switches in which instead of -- being "comment to end of line", it's > is "code to end of line" |
| 01:49 | <@McMartin> | (Alternately, LaTeX where \begin{code} and \end{code} mean it.) |
| 01:50 | < Namegduf> | I'm not sure why I hate # comments... I just dislike them for some reason. |
| 01:50 | < Namegduf> | Really, I prefer // and /*; the former for documentation, the latter for temporarily commenting out blocks. |
| 01:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | I do think the lack of block comments is bad (in any language, not just Perl) |
| 01:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | I have no particular objection to # itself, though. |
| 01:52 | <@Derakon> | For block commenting-out, vim is your friend~ |
| 01:52 | <@Derakon> | :.,'as/^/# |
| 01:52 | <@Derakon> | That comments out everything from the current line to the marker "a" that you set earlier (by scrolling to a point and hitting 'a). |
| 01:52 | < Namegduf> | I use vim, but not enough to know what that is. |
| 01:52 | < Namegduf> | Ah. |
| 01:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | Pointing out that the editor can compensate for deficiencies in the language doesn't make up for the fact that is a deficiency. |
| 01:53 | <@Derakon> | .,'a <--- From the current line, through to the line with marker a |
| 01:53 | <@McMartin> | M-x comment-section |
| 01:53 | <@Derakon> | s/^/# <--- Replace the beginning of the line with a '#'. |
| 01:53 | <@McMartin> | Or comment-region, more likely |
| 01:53 | <@McMartin> | Tab-completable commands 4tw |
| 01:54 | <@Derakon> | Only if you have the 500-page reference for what each specific obscure phrase does~ |
| 01:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | A whole function with # on the front is ugly, and needing an editor that's aware of the language just to easily comment out more than a few lines is not a desireable feature, even if most editors do have that awareness. |
| 01:54 | <@Derakon> | (vim is probably no more "discorable" than emacs, but its tools tend to be more general) |
| 01:55 | <@Derakon> | Er. "discoverable". |
| 01:55 | < Namegduf> | "discoverable" isn't one of the words I'd associate with "vim", no. |
| 01:55 | <@Derakon> | Would you associate it with emacs? |
| 01:55 | <@McMartin> | Derakon: There is also C-h, which opens a window and gives the key for "explain command" |
| 01:55 | | * Derakon shrugs. |
| 01:55 | <@McMartin> | C-h pops up a status bar that says you type ? for more specific ones |
| 01:56 | <@McMartin> | Between describe-function and apropos-documentation you can generally find what you need even when guess-and-tab-complete doesn't cover it |
| 01:56 | < Namegduf> | Derakon: I've not looked at emacs all that much. |
| 01:56 | | * ToxicFrog will stick with JEdit :P |
| 01:57 | <@Derakon> | Practically everything I need is covered by s, g, markers, and a small selection of edit-mode commands like * (search for word under cursor) and {/} (scroll to next change in indentation/whitespace). |
| 01:58 | < Namegduf> | I've still to figure out if there's a way to make the regex support more sane. |
| 01:58 | <@McMartin> | Sure, and most of what I need in Emacs is handled by replace-string, replace-regex, and the navigation keys. |
| 01:58 | <@McMartin> | Oh, and Ctrl-S/Ctrl-R, the search commands. |
| 01:58 | | * McMartin of late mostly uses TextWrangler, X-Code, and Notepad++. |
| 02:02 | | Namegduf is now known as ego |
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| 02:07 | < Alek> | Notepad++ and NoteTab and Textpad, all are great. |
| 02:07 | < Alek> | in their own ways. |
| 02:07 | < Alek> | I'm currently using NPP :P |
| 02:08 | | ego is now known as Namegduf |
| 02:08 | <@Consul> | Am I the only one who finds myself with no preferential text editor? Sadly, I think they all suck, just some less than others. |
| 02:08 | <@McMartin> | Alek: Well, Notepad++ has the significant disadvantage that it doesn't run on OS X, which the other two do. |
| 02:11 | <@Derakon> | Consul: but...but how do you inflate your own sense of self-worth if not by denigrating other peoples' choice of text editor? |
| 02:12 | <@Derakon> | (See also: http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html ) |
| 02:12 | | * TheWatcher[zZzZ] readsup, vaguely notes that he considers his perl to be as readable and decent looking as any c, c++ or java code he writes, but must admit to being somewhat atypical in style, especially commenting |
| 02:13 | < Namegduf> | TheWatcher[zZzZ]: Tips? :P |
| 02:13 | <@TheWatcher[zZzZ]> | Although, that's just my opinion. |
| 02:13 | <@Consul> | Derakon: I'm plenty denigrating without text editors being involved. :-P |
| 02:14 | <@McMartin> | TW: Do note my initial link, which you may find interesting. |
| 02:14 | <@McMartin> | It being a TeX/any-language hybrid language implemented in itself/Perl. |
| 02:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | Consul: well, yes, but ideally you want the one that sucks least |
| 02:17 | <@TheWatcher[zZzZ]> | I'll eyeball it tomorrow, when I'm not trying to persuade my brain that no, it really is slep time |
| 02:17 | <@Consul> | ToxicFrog: I guess what I'm saying is that I can adapt well enough to what's on hand. |
| 02:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | Consul: which is a vital skill, and one which I suspect everyone in this channel has, but that doesn't stop one from having a preferred editor. |
| 02:18 | <@Consul> | That being said, for my part, Kate seems the most sane, as far as my own taste is concerned. |
| 02:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | I tried Kate, and really didn't like it, although I no longer remember why. |
| 02:18 | <@Consul> | The part I don't like is it's a KDE app. |
| 02:19 | <@Consul> | But KDE and Gnome work pretty well together now, so it's not as big a deal anymore. |
| 02:19 | < Namegduf> | Does it have regex search and replace? I always pegged it as a Notepad clone. |
| 02:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | Kate? Oh no, it's definitely a code editor |
| 02:20 | | * Namegduf makes a note to look at it if he ever uses KDE again. |
| 02:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | Syntax hilighting, regex search and replace, folding... |
| 02:20 | <@Derakon> | What do you mean by "folding"? |
| 02:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | There's a widget in the gutter that lets you collapse blocks |
| 02:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | So, say: |
| 02:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | if foo then |
| 02:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | bar() |
| 02:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | end |
| 02:21 | <@Derakon> | Ahh. |
| 02:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | Toggles to: |
| 02:21 | <@TheWatcher[zZzZ]> | Dera: hs-minor-mode in emacs |
| 02:21 | <@Derakon> | So you can hide the blocks you don't care about. |
| 02:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | if foo then [... 2 more lines] |
| 02:21 | <@Derakon> | TW: does what? |
| 02:21 | <@TheWatcher[zZzZ]> | Same thing, just assumed you might know that more immediately |
| 02:22 | <@Derakon> | Ahh, no. Vim user, remember? |
| 02:22 | <@TheWatcher[zZzZ]> | Oh, yes. |
| 02:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | Some editors support it for specific languages they know about; JEdit additionally (and this is one of the things I love about it) has a indent-folding mode where it folds based on indentation levels. |
| 02:22 | <@Derakon> | About the only emacs commands I know are C-x C-s, C-x C-c, M-x tetris, and M-x dunnet. |
| 02:22 | <@TheWatcher[zZzZ]> | Snrk |
| 02:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | My only real complaints about JEdit are that (1) editing language modes is harder than in NEdit (which, to be fair, appears to be the case in everything) and (2) Smart Indent fucking isn't, if you use a language where {} don't delimit blocks, and you can't turn it off. |
| 02:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | (or well, you can, but then it doesn't remember how indented you were from line to line at all) |
| 02:25 | | * Derakon tries to read up on the Miller-Rabin primality test, runs into some terms he doesn't recognize. For example, "finite field". The beginning of the article for that says "In abstract algebra..." and right about there my brain shut down. ¬.¬ |
| 02:26 | <@Consul> | Abstract algebra? Isn't all algebra by definition abstract? |
| 02:27 | <@McMartin> | Abstract Algebra is the one that doesn't bother with such niceties as "integers" and "reals" and operates on arbitrary sets and relations that meet certain minimal properties |
| 02:27 | <@Derakon> | Most of what I know about abstract algebra I learned from listening to the math majors swearing at their homework. |
| 02:27 | <@Consul> | Heh |
| 02:27 | <@McMartin> | A "Group", for instance, is any set with a binary relation that is fully defined and that's closed with respect to the set. Call it "+" |
| 02:28 | <@Consul> | I guess holding a 101.4% in differential equations still doesn't make me a mathematician. |
| 02:28 | <@Derakon> | DiffEQs is applied math. |
| 02:28 | <@Derakon> | It's used by...ugh...physicists. |
| 02:28 | <@McMartin> | As long as (x + (y + z)) = ((x + y) + z), some element e exists such taht e + x = x + e = x for all x in the set, and for each x some element y exists such that x + y = e... |
| 02:28 | <@Consul> | Hey, now... |
| 02:28 | | * Consul is a physics major. |
| 02:29 | <@Derakon> | Heh. |
| 02:29 | <@McMartin> | ... you get to call yourself a "group", and many things true about the integers under addition are true for such a set. |
| 02:29 | <@McMartin> | The key thing that isn't necessarily true is that there's no guarantee that x + y = y + x. |
| 02:29 | <@McMartin> | Square Invertible Matrices under matrix multiplication form a group, despite not being commutative |
| 02:30 | <@Consul> | Now that's interesting, because to me, addition's commutativity is key to algebra working to begin with. |
| 02:30 | <@Derakon> | McM took rather more math in college than I did, which is an impressive feat seeing as Mudd requires 2 years of math for all its majors. |
| 02:30 | <@Derakon> | (One class per semester) |
| 02:30 | <@Consul> | McMartin: Okay, I see what you're saying now. |
| 02:30 | <@Derakon> | Consul: "+" doesn't mean "addition" in this context. |
| 02:31 | <@McMartin> | Consul: That's because you're used to dealing with rings, where there are two operations "+" and "*", the former of which must be commutative and invertible, the latter of which need not be. |
| 02:31 | <@McMartin> | But the distributive law has to work. |
| 02:31 | <@McMartin> | If the * is mostly invertible (the +'s identity *never* works; division by "zero" is always a problem) you have a "division ring" or a "field" |
| 02:31 | <@McMartin> | Once you're in the land of fields it starts looking like actually applicable math. |
| 02:32 | <@McMartin> | But there's a big hierarchy of more and more restricted operations with fewer and fewer assumptions. |
| 02:32 | <@McMartin> | In fact, the "monads" of Haskell fame are basically one of the levels less restrictive than "Group" |
| 02:32 | <@Consul> | It sounds fascinating, but I don't know if I'll be able to touch this anytime soon. |
| 02:32 | <@McMartin> | Which is why it can as easily represent both file I/O and parsers of arbitrarily complex languages. |
| 02:32 | <@Consul> | I still think I'm doing pretty good with >100% in diff-eq, though. |
| 02:33 | <@Consul> | I am, after all, a physics major. |
| 02:33 | <@Consul> | But I want to code as well. |
| 02:33 | | * Derakon nods. |
| 02:33 | <@McMartin> | Yeah. My continuous math is bad, because I live in CS, where all is discrete and the wackier axiom sets turn out to actually be useful. |
| 02:33 | <@Consul> | My goal is to finally write decent software for physicists and engineers. |
| 02:33 | <@McMartin> | (Matrix math stuff before: 3-D graphical transforms!) |
| 02:33 | <@Consul> | I really enjoyed linear algebra, actually. |
| 02:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh hey, the issue with { breaking indent is fixed. |
| 02:35 | | * Derakon sighs. " |
| 02:36 | <@Derakon> | I'd really like to be able to understand my algorithms, but I think that's not feasible in this case without a lot of remedial math and then a lot of math that, when I got close to it in college, damaged my hair. |
| 02:37 | <@Consul> | I did, however, decide I had to look up fractional derivatives the other day, as an interesting question came up in chemistry: Can you take a half of a derivative? It turns out you can... |
| 02:37 | <@Consul> | For e^ax, it turns out to be really easy. |
| 02:38 | <@Consul> | For any order of derivative N, the formula is: a^Ne^ax |
| 02:38 | <@Consul> | N can be any real number. |
| 02:39 | <@Consul> | It's also easy for sin and cos, where the fractional derivative just defines a phase shift. |
| 02:39 | <@Consul> | Beyond that, though, it gets really, really tough. |
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| 02:48 | <@Consul> | But I guess that's a subject for #math :-) |
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| 02:53 | <@Consul> | I should probably write that: (a^n)e^ax |
| 02:55 | <@McMartin> | Incidentally, Derakon, IIRC all finite fields are basically "The integers mod some prime." |
| 02:55 | <@McMartin> | And vice versa. |
| 02:56 | <@McMartin> | Z_7, for instance, is a field, because 1*1 = 1, 2*4 = 1, 3*5 = 1, 6 * 6 = 1. |
| 02:57 | <@McMartin> | As such, you can sensibly define division on it, and most of the laws you'd get involving this in real arithmetic (or complex, or quaternion) will hold with these too. |
| 02:57 | | * McMartin also runs some statistical numbers on the inweb webs, gets quite acceptable "what you write vs. what is compiled" ratios. |
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| 06:42 | <@Doctor_Nick> | hey guys im applyin to grad school in cs |
| 06:42 | <@Doctor_Nick> | what should i study |
| 06:43 | <@McMartin> | What are you good at? |
| 06:43 | <@McMartin> | MS or Ph.D? |
| 06:44 | <@Doctor_Nick> | MS |
| 06:44 | <@Derakon> | And what are you looking to us for -- classes? Domains? Languages? |
| 06:44 | <@Doctor_Nick> | i was pretty good at operating systems when i was part of the os group as an undergrad but i'd like to check out my options |
| 06:45 | <@McMartin> | MS types don't typically get to specialize that much. |
| 06:45 | <@McMartin> | "Systems" is probably the closest you'd get and that'll probably include stuff like networks and program analysis along with OS |
| 06:46 | <@Doctor_Nick> | alot of our focus was on storage |
| 06:46 | <@Derakon> | We had an undergrad OS course at my college, McM. |
| 06:46 | <@Doctor_Nick> | yeah |
| 06:50 | <@McMartin> | Derakon: Well, sure he said so himself |
| 06:52 | <@Doctor_Nick> | what field of study sounds sexy on the surface but in actuality will probably produce nothing of any real worth |
| 06:54 | <@Derakon> | I'd say underwater basketweaving, but you could probably sell the baskets to tourists. |
| 06:58 | <@Doctor_Nick> | someone suggested machine learning |
| 06:59 | <@Derakon> | Oooh, oooh -- AI. |
| 06:59 | <@Derakon> | Especially "pure" AI as opposed to expert systems. |
| 06:59 | | * Vornicus needs to figure out game-"ai" |
| 07:00 | <@Doctor_Nick> | i need to check to see if they actually have an ai group here |
| 07:03 | <@Doctor_Nick> | im gonna pass out, thanks |
| 07:13 | <@McMartin> | AI can be pretty deadly dull |
| 07:13 | <@McMartin> | My focus was compilers and program analysis, which touches on all kinds of random stuff and thus can be a great deal of fun |
| 07:13 | <@Derakon> | I was responding to the "sounds sexy but is useless" question. |
| 07:14 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, but it's also kind of boring. =P |
| 07:14 | <@Derakon> | That, I wouldn't know, not having worked in AI. |
| 07:17 | <@Derakon> | We are Men! We are men in Tights! (Tights?) Tights! |
| 07:17 | <@Derakon> | Mischan. |
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| 22:07 | <@Derakon> | I just had an interesting realization. Given a list [a, b, c, d] and the problem of coming up with all unordered combinations of elements in the list (e.g. [a], [b], [a, b], [a, c, d], [a, b, c, d], etc.), you can just do "for i in [0, 2^n-1], convert i to binary bitmask, extract elements at indices corresponding to 1s in the mask." |
| 22:07 | <@Derakon> | Nice and simple. |
| 22:08 | <@Finerty> | Indeed. |
| 22:09 | <@McMartin> | That's also how you prove that the cardinality of the powerset of a set of size N is 2^N. |
| 22:09 | <@McMartin> | (POWERSET FINISH! CARDINALITY) |
| 22:09 | | * Derakon snorts. |
| 22:10 | | * Finerty is writing a thing that generates the power set of a multiset today. |
| 22:12 | < simontwo> | Derakon, that is nice and simple. |
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| 23:08 | | * Finerty ponders. |
| 23:08 | <@Finerty> | THe most important improvement that can be made to the PDF of a D&D-like character sheet is a way to do computerized input. |
| 23:12 | < simontwo> | pdflatex? |
| 23:13 | | * simontwo doesn't know if/how parameters work for PDF documents. |
| 23:13 | <@Finerty> | A possibility, but then I am slowly getting to the point where I can actually write pdf by hand. What it really needs is form inputs, which I've seen in some pdfs. |
| 23:15 | <@Finerty> | So if I can figure out how to do that, I might try hacking this character sheet PDF to accept forminess. |
| --- Log closed Mon Apr 27 00:00:30 2009 |