| --- Log opened Mon Nov 24 00:00:54 2008 |
| 00:17 | | * himi nods |
| 00:35 | | Serah [~Z@Nightstar-5401.atm2-0-1041217.0xc329e232.boanxx12.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Be right back, got some smiting and righteous justice to attend to.] |
| 00:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | lua SDL library initialization semantics. |
| 00:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | Auto-initialize SDL, or wait for explicit initialization? |
| 00:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | If the former, hard or soft error on initialization failure? |
| 00:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | Note that this is meant to be a library for beginner-to-intermediate developers, not a direct C->Lua binding. |
| 00:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | So I'm leaning towards autoinitialize with hard errors. |
| 00:50 | <@McMartin> | I agree. |
| 00:50 | <@McMartin> | The only reason not to would be if you want to let them set a resolution/colordepth. |
| 00:50 | <@McMartin> | Then you initialize on that set with a hard error. |
| 00:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well, initialization here is SDL_Init() |
| 00:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | They do get to set a resolution. |
| 00:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | (color depth is always 32bpp) |
| 00:54 | <@Derakon> | You're making a Lua interface for SDL? |
| 00:54 | <@Derakon> | (I.e. "why bother with C/C++?") |
| 00:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yep. |
| 00:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | There's actually two already, but they're for 4.x. |
| 00:56 | <@Derakon> | Heh. |
| 00:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | And were direct C bindings. |
| 00:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | I want something a bit higher-level and easier to use. |
| 00:56 | <@Derakon> | So they basically just recognized certain function calls and passed the arguments straight along to the library? |
| 00:56 | | * GeekSoldier snickers at the fact that he solved a projecteuler problem using excel. |
| 00:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | In effect. |
| 00:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | It was a straightforward exporting of all the SDL functions, constants and data structures into Lua. |
| 00:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which is fine as far as it goes, but I want users to be able to go: sdl.screen:drawFilledRectangle(0, 0, 100, 100, green); sdl.draw() |
| 00:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or similar. |
| 00:59 | <@Derakon> | So you'd be auto-including the SDL_Draw library and others? |
| 00:59 | <@GeekSoldier> | kind of like what pygame did for python? |
| 01:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | Pygame, as near as I can tell, is just a straight C bindings. |
| 01:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | Every C function has an identical Python equivalent, etc. |
| 01:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | Derakon: SDL_gfx, I think, but yes. |
| 01:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | The current goal is basic drawing (SDL core, SDL_gfx), then input (mouse, joystick and keyboard support), then images, then the event stream |
| 01:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | And I'm not sure what after that |
| 01:07 | <@Derakon> | Collision detection. >.> |
| 01:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | That's their problem. |
| 01:09 | <@Derakon> | Sound? |
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| 01:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ow. |
| 01:43 | < himi> | Hey TF, how hard would it be to use SDL timers from an app that doesn't use SDL for anything else? |
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| 01:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | I've never used SDL timers, but it should be pretty simple |
| 02:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | Link against SDL, call SDL_Init(SDL_INIT_TIMER) at startup, then use GetTicks/Delay/AddTimer/RemoveTimer/SetTimer as normal. |
| 02:03 | < himi> | So you can initialise /only/ the timers? |
| 02:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 02:05 | < himi> | Cool |
| 02:09 | <@McMartin> | As long as you don't need detachable threads, SDL's thread system is also handy |
| 02:14 | | * himi is working on a framework that already does all that kind of shit, and in general assumes that timers are available from the event toolkit you're using |
| 02:14 | < himi> | Sadly, the one that I'm using is a piece of shit, which doesn't support timers at all |
| 02:15 | < himi> | It's /just/ capable of handling what I need elsewhere, but not timers |
| 03:05 | | Finerty is now known as Vornicus |
| 03:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | Function name suggestions: set window size/resolution, flip buffers (ie, draw the surface to the screen), get mouse coordinates |
| 03:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | At the moment: sdl.setResolution, sdl.draw, sdl.getMouseXY |
| 03:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | I may actually do getMouseState instead, which returns x, y and buttons. |
| 03:20 | <@McMartin> | I'd suggest keeping flip as flip. |
| 03:20 | <@McMartin> | "draw" does not sufficiently underscore the fact that you've just destroyed your draw surface. |
| 03:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | In this case, you aren't, since it's a software surface. |
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| 04:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | sdl.mouse([x,y]) |
| 04:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | If x and y are given, warps the mouse to this location. |
| 04:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | In either case, returns the x and y coordinates of the mouse, and a list of booleans corresponding to the mouse buttons. |
| 04:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | sdl.resolution([w,h]) |
| 04:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | If w and h are given, resizes the window accordingly and updates the value of sdl.screen to be the new screen surface. |
| 04:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | In either case, returns the current resolution. |
| 04:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | sdl.screen |
| 04:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | A reference to the current display surface. |
| 04:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | sdl.title([title]) |
| 04:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | If title is given, sets the window title accordingly. Returns the window title. |
| 04:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | Sanity checks please? |
| 04:44 | <@Derakon> | sdl.resolution and sdl.title look a bit redundant to me. |
| 04:44 | <@Derakon> | In that they both fall under "set stuff for the window/screen" and you're unlikely to call them often. |
| 04:44 | <@Derakon> | So I'd be inclined to make a "setup screen/get screen status" method instead which accepts a table of settings and returns a table of settings. |
| 04:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hmm |
| 04:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | Something like: |
| 04:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | sdl.configureScreen { |
| 04:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | width = 800; |
| 04:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | height = 600; |
| 04:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | title = "Test Program"; |
| 04:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | } |
| 04:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | ? |
| 04:55 | <@Derakon> | Yeah, something like that. |
| 04:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or: print(sdl.configureScreen().title) |
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| 05:21 | <@Serah> | Seems I will not interrupt anything by asking now. |
| 05:21 | <@Serah> | Why not PHP? |
| 05:24 | <@Serah> | Is it the language? The basis? The way it structures kittens? |
| 05:24 | <@McMartin> | The language is a part of it; the compiler itself is another part |
| 05:25 | <@McMartin> | Essentially, each version of the compiler produces code with different security holes in it, sometimes even if the source code "ought" to be safe. |
| 05:25 | <@Serah> | Oh, well here's a sound argument. What would be a good alternative? |
| 05:25 | <@McMartin> | TF can go into it in greater detail, I believe. I haven't actually worked with it beyond the occasional "demonstrate XSS vulnerabilities" |
| 05:25 | <@McMartin> | What's your goal? |
| 05:26 | <@Serah> | Advanced homepage design. |
| 05:26 | <@McMartin> | Personal or business scope? |
| 05:26 | <@Serah> | I know HTML, CSS, enough Jscript to go by. |
| 05:26 | <@Serah> | Personal business scope. >_> |
| 05:26 | <@McMartin> | Java. |
| 05:26 | <@Serah> | I have an inherent hate for Java. |
| 05:27 | <@McMartin> | Probably one of the frameworks like Spring or Struts. |
| 05:27 | <@Serah> | But perhaps Java server pages are different? |
| 05:27 | <@McMartin> | Sssssort of. |
| 05:27 | <@McMartin> | They're a bit closer to PHP, as they're designed to be |
| 05:27 | <@Derakon> | JSPs are basically Java mixed with HTML. |
| 05:27 | <@McMartin> | However, if you use them blindly they'll have most of the same problems PHP does WRT security. |
| 05:27 | <@Serah> | As far as java goes, anything that doesn't require its RTE is fine with me. |
| 05:27 | <@McMartin> | If you use a framework system that gives you better JSP tags to autoquote input and stuff you can be in better shape. |
| 05:28 | <@Serah> | Its RTE is just buggy, and one big security hole in itself. |
| 05:28 | <@McMartin> | ... you're mad. |
| 05:28 | <@Serah> | Yep. |
| 05:28 | <@McMartin> | Or, rather, if you're worried about the JVM, you need to immediately flee screaming from every single choice you hvae. |
| 05:28 | <@Serah> | Oh. |
| 05:28 | <@Serah> | I'll get on that then. |
| 05:28 | <@McMartin> | Because PHP, Perl, and Python have similar architectures |
| 05:28 | <@McMartin> | And none of them are statically typesafe, while Java is. |
| 05:29 | <@McMartin> | And, well, PHP, Perl/Mason, Python, and Java/JSP/Spring/etc. are your only real choices. |
| 05:29 | <@Serah> | Actually, it's not the VM I'm afraid of, it's the thingie that Java requires to run its applets. |
| 05:29 | <@McMartin> | Mmmaybe Ruby on Rails, but again, it's a JIT/terp setup. |
| 05:29 | <@McMartin> | ... You're deeply confused here, I think. |
| 05:29 | <@Derakon> | Applets are totally different from server-side Java. |
| 05:29 | <@Derakon> | Applets are run client-side. |
| 05:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | Lua has a decent web setup here as well (Kepler) but, again, VM-based |
| 05:29 | <@McMartin> | You need the JRE to run anything in Java, just as you need a Python interpreter to run mod_python. |
| 05:30 | <@Serah> | Hmm. Confused indeed. |
| 05:30 | <@Serah> | This is why I'm just a rank amateur. |
| 05:31 | <@McMartin> | OK, so, Non-applet Java works like this: |
| 05:31 | <@McMartin> | Program is written in Java, compiled to .class files, packaged in a .jar or .zip file as the final application. |
| 05:31 | <@McMartin> | Computer that is to run this program passes said .jar or .zip to a program called "java", roughly equivalent to the programs python.exe or perl.exe |
| 05:32 | <@McMartin> | java does some type-checking of the binaries, and then runs them in its VM |
| 05:33 | <@McMartin> | Apache Tomcat is a Java program that is essentially a webserver that hosts Java programs that use the Web as their primary interface; you run it instead of the normal Apache server. |
| 05:33 | <@McMartin> | It will compile JSP files into Java programs that behave as you'd expect, and there are various ways of extending it that are generally beyond my ken. |
| 05:34 | <@McMartin> | However, in all of these cases, all that the end user sees is what that program spits out, which is, in the end, a bunch of print statements. |
| 05:34 | <@McMartin> | JSPs, like normal PHP, make it so that the stuff outside the special markers (<% %> in JSP's case) is stuff that's printed out. |
| 05:35 | <@McMartin> | If you're trying to do things like manage inventory or something, though, you'll be better off with one of the larger application frameworks. |
| 05:35 | <@Derakon> | So in other words, you can have a "jsp" file that's all pure HTML. |
| 05:35 | <@Derakon> | And that will compile into a Java program that just prints out the HTML when executed. |
| 05:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | (Incidentally: all the stuff we're talking about runs on the server, and spits out HTML or CSS or Javascript that the browser downloads and displays. I believe this is what you're after.) |
| 05:35 | <@McMartin> | If you're doing something that Everyone Else Is Doing, Ruby on Rails is *probably* your best bet. |
| 05:35 | <@Serah> | Yes, with only one minor addendum. |
| 05:35 | <@Derakon> | Or you can have a file that has static HTML for e.g. the page title, then goes down into Java to print out a listing of stuff in your catalog, then does static HTML for the footer. Et cetera. |
| 05:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | (If you want more client-side power, your only options at the moment are pretty much More Javascript, Java applets, Flash, or Silverlight.) |
| 05:35 | <@Serah> | It has to be easy to write, because I'm a moron. |
| 05:36 | <@Serah> | But not as sloppy as ASP.net. |
| 05:36 | <@McMartin> | I am given to understand that Ruby on Rails automates the vast majority of tasks needed, and you may wish to check it out. |
| 05:36 | <@Serah> | I have indeed thought of RoR as a viable alternative, but people here suggested against it. |
| 05:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | If you're looking for ease-of-writing I really would recommend Python or Lua, as they're fairly easy to learn languages; Ruby is...less friendly...but RoR seems to be well thought of. |
| 05:36 | <@McMartin> | Server-side Java is essentially the nuclear forklift of web applications. |
| 05:37 | <@Derakon> | What I've heard of Ruby on Rails is basically that it works great so long as you don't try to do anything it wasn't designed for. |
| 05:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | (and/or intensely despised depending on who you ask~) |
| 05:37 | <@McMartin> | So it may, in the end, be what you *need* |
| 05:37 | <@McMartin> | It will definitely be capable of doing what you want |
| 05:37 | <@McMartin> | But it may not *be* what you want. |
| 05:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | Derakon: that's also been my impression, pretty much. |
| 05:37 | <@Serah> | I would also prefer something that wouldn't become antiquedated immidiatly after I pick it up. |
| 05:37 | <@Derakon> | None of these are going anywhere anytime soon. |
| 05:37 | <@McMartin> | RoR has been around for several years. |
| 05:37 | <@Derakon> | All of them, in fact, have extensive communities supporting them. |
| 05:37 | <@Serah> | I know. |
| 05:43 | <@Serah> | As far as I've gathered, McMartin is rooting for Java, TF is rooting for Python, and Derakon is just rooting? |
| 05:43 | <@Derakon> | Um, I'm a fan of Perl, but I know it's not everyone's thing. |
| 05:45 | | * Vornicus is also rooting for Python. |
| 05:45 | <@Serah> | Why python? |
| 05:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | I would be rooting for Lua, actually, but I don't know enough about most of these web frameworks to make an informed decision about them as frameworks, only as languages. |
| 05:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | Easy to learn, easy to use, highly portable, comes with lots of libraries. Warts: whitespace sensitive, closures are kind of crippled. |
| 05:46 | <@Vornicus> | That's python there. |
| 05:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 05:47 | <@Derakon> | Perl has a bit higher of a learning curve, no whitespace sensitivity, and stronger (IMO) string handling. |
| 05:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | My not-entirely-flippant suggestion is "learn or at least play with all of these languages, then pick the one you prefer" |
| 05:47 | <@Derakon> | Not a bad idea. |
| 05:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | Perl's string handling is ridiculously awesome, yes. |
| 05:47 | <@Derakon> | At the very least take a look at Perl, Python, and Java. |
| 05:48 | <@Derakon> | We don't know exactly what you want to do, so we can only suggest. You'll need to make an informed decision on your own. |
| 05:48 | <@Vornicus> | Lua: easy to learn, very easy to bend to your unspeakable will, embeddable, can be made to work with any object model you can think of. Warts: 1-indexed, and what libraries there are are usually baroque or were broken by the latest updates. |
| 05:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | On the other hand, the language is ugly, there's ten subtly different ways of doing any one thing, there's lots of implicit language, type warts augh, and as a result of all of this writing write-only code is far too easy in it for comfort. |
| 05:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | (all of this, of course, IMO) |
| 05:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | (and that's for Perl) |
| 05:48 | <@Derakon> | Heh. |
| 05:49 | <@Vornicus> | Ruby: lots of cool features. Warts: no documentation for these cool features. |
| 05:49 | <@Derakon> | I don't find the language ugly, multiple ways to do one thing can be handy, implicit stuff can and should be avoided (but this is easy), and you can write write-only code in any language. Granted it's easier in Perl. |
| 05:50 | <@Vornicus> | Well, okay, expanding on Ruby: lots of cool features. almost-perl-level string handling. don't like the behavior of something? change it. Warts: the documentation sucks major ass, the community is arrogant, and often you /have to/ change the behavior of the standard library to get the thing that you want done. |
| 05:51 | <@Derakon> | I'd say that's a non-starter for a beginner, then. |
| 05:52 | <@Derakon> | You want to be working within the language's existing constructs as much as possible. |
| 05:53 | <@Vornicus> | Java: Swiss Army Knife of programming languages. Huge huge huge library, usable for everything from applets to servers. Warts: among the most verbose languages out there, very inflexible, and Swing is a 400-pound tumor. |
| 05:53 | <@Vornicus> | sorry, not swiss army knife. |
| 05:53 | <@Vornicus> | Swiss Army Arc Welder. |
| 05:53 | <@Serah> | Also, ugly, hard to learn, and procssor heavy in both development and execution. |
| 05:53 | <@Vornicus> | PHP: Don't Use PHP. |
| 05:53 | <@Serah> | I got that :p |
| 05:54 | <@Serah> | My roomie is a javamonkie. |
| 05:54 | <@Vornicus> | Java is actually less processor-heavy than many of these other languages. |
| 05:54 | <@Vornicus> | It's JIT'd nowadays, which means it gets performance on par with a native application. |
| 05:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | JIT compiler + dynamic recomipilation and optimization at runtime. |
| 05:54 | <@Derakon> | JIT = just-in-time compiled. |
| 05:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | It is, however, very memory intensive. |
| 05:55 | <@Derakon> | Whereas Perl, Python, etc. are all interpreted. |
| 05:55 | <@Derakon> | And C, C++, etc. are outright compiled. |
| 05:56 | <@Vornicus> | yes. Java doesn't seem to like normal memory management, so it allocates a bigass chunk and has its way with that. |
| 05:56 | <@McMartin> | That's because entirely too many operating systems do brk() wrong. ;_; |
| 05:57 | <@Vornicus> | brk()? |
| 05:57 | <@McMartin> | As I learned to my cost in UQM. |
| 05:57 | <@McMartin> | The "I'm done with this memory, take it back" syscall in Unix. |
| 05:57 | <@Vornicus> | aha |
| 05:57 | <@McMartin> | We were somehow managing to fragment memory so hard that mallocing 80-byte structures would fail. |
| 05:57 | <@Vornicus> | ;_; |
| 05:57 | <@Derakon> | Fun. |
| 05:57 | <@McMartin> | Then we turned everything to pre-allocated ring queues and never touched the heap except when slurping files into memory. |
| 05:57 | <@Derakon> | (Have I mentioned recently that PHP doesn't GC islands of memory correctly, and that I had to resort to fork() to deal with a batch app because of this?) |
| 05:59 | <@McMartin> | (You haven't. Good times.) |
| 05:59 | <@McMartin> | Oh, that's right, speaking of GC |
| 05:59 | <@Serah> | Current disposistion: I'm leaning towards either Lua or Ruby (on rails) |
| 06:00 | <@McMartin> | RoR is definitely your first stop, because if you just want something basic, they may have a "fill in this form and we'll do everything for you with our army of robots" mode. |
| 06:00 | <@Derakon> | Do keep in mind that Lua means you will have to write every piece of functionality you need that's more complicated than the language built-ins from scratch. |
| 06:00 | <@Derakon> | As Lua, to my knowledge, does not have an extensive webdev community. |
| 06:00 | <@McMartin> | Even if something else is better in the end, RoR is likely to be the route to instant gratification or at least instant almost-gratification. |
| 06:00 | <@Vornicus> | If not that, I recommend Python with either Pylons or Django. |
| 06:00 | <@Serah> | I'll ask where to start within the week then :p |
| 06:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Derakon: it does, actually. I mentioned it earlier. |
| 06:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Kepler. |
| 06:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | keplerproject.org, IIRC. |
| 06:01 | <@Derakon> | Ah? My mistake. |
| 06:01 | <@Serah> | If all else fails, I know the monkeys of WoW uses Lua to code their junk. |
| 06:01 | <@McMartin> | (And, if Perl, Mason.) |
| 06:02 | <+Alek|gone> | WoW uses LUA indeed. |
| 06:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | If it didn't have this, I wouldn't have recommended it, as writing a web framework from scratch is pain in whatever language. |
| 06:02 | <+Alek|gone> | I think Oblivion may do so as well. |
| 06:02 | <@McMartin> | Aquaria is also basically entirely written in Lua except for the rendering engines. |
| 06:02 | <@McMartin> | The gaming industry loves Lua. |
| 06:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | Likewise Supreme Commander and Homeworld 2. |
| 06:02 | <@Vornicus> | WoW, SupComm, Aquaria, HW2... |
| 06:02 | <@McMartin> | The later LucasArts games used a fork of it from before it was a usable language. |
| 06:02 | <@Derakon> | There's a lot to be said for being easy to embed in languages that can do heavy lifting but suck for expressivity. |
| 06:02 | <+Alek|gone> | it seems to be the language of choice for GUIs. :P |
| 06:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's very popular in the games industry, because it's small, fast, and as mentioned earlier easy to bend to your nefarious will and embed into C or C++ programs. |
| 06:03 | <@McMartin> | One of these days, TF, we should sort out a proper functional spec for Enceladus and make it a full application. |
| 06:03 | <@McMartin> | Or rather, a full target-for-Makefile-magic, or whatever it is that it turns out that it ought to be. |
| 06:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | Agreed. |
| 06:03 | <@Vornicus> | Enceladus? |
| 06:03 | <@McMartin> | Since I recall your reaction to it was "This is cool, but it solves the wrong problem." |
| 06:04 | <+Alek|gone> | Enchilada? |
| 06:04 | <@McMartin> | The idea for Enceladus was to be a mechanism for automatically embedding Lua script directly into C binaries. |
| 06:04 | <+Alek|gone> | ooh |
| 06:04 | <@Vornicus> | shiny. |
| 06:04 | <@McMartin> | s/Lua script/compiled Lua scripts/ |
| 06:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well, not so much the wrong problem as not the one I was trying to solve, IIRC |
| 06:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | And not necessarily compiled - lua_load cares not whether it's source or bytecode. |
| 06:05 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, but for non-compiled, that's called "have a string" |
| 06:05 | <@McMartin> | This thus being roughly equivalent to Perl/Python/Ruby "freeze" operations, and Enceladus is a cryovolcanic ice moon of Saturn. |
| 06:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | My goal was "here is a set of lua scripts. Generate for me C code for a binary that embeds them all, along with the required modifications so that require() behaves as expected when you ask it for an embedded module." |
| 06:05 | <+Alek|gone> | should I bother taking a class in LUA? or just pick up a book? |
| 06:06 | <@McMartin> | (And "Lua", being a satellite language, is named because "Lua" is "Moon" in Portuguese.) |
| 06:06 | <@Derakon> | There's a book freely available online. |
| 06:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | And then running the binary calls whichever lua file you designated as the entry point, passing it the contents of argv. |
| 06:06 | <@McMartin> | I'd start with that. |
| 06:06 | <@Derakon> | Though it can be a bit difficult to decipher at times. |
| 06:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | Alek|gone: if you have previous programming experience, reading the reference manual should be sufficient, IME. |
| 06:06 | <@McMartin> | Yeah. It's gotten a bit better with time, I understand. |
| 06:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | There's also a book, Programming in Lua; the first edition (for Lua 5.0) is available online. |
| 06:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | The second edition (for 5.1) is availably only in hardcopy. |
| 06:07 | <+Alek|gone> | Basic, Cobol, C++, HTML, CSS, XML, JS. this do? >_> |
| 06:07 | <+Alek|gone> | also, link? <_< |
| 06:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: whereas, as I recall, your goal was more general embedding of Lua code into C-space. |
| 06:07 | <@Derakon> | The title will suffice for Google, Alek. |
| 06:07 | <+Alek|gone> | lol |
| 06:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | Alek|gone: www.lua.org/manual/5.1/, www.lua.org/pil/ |
| 06:07 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, since that was before I realized you could just throw strings at it. |
| 06:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | Also www.lua-users.org/wiki/LuaDirectory |
| 06:09 | <+Alek|gone> | ty |
| 06:09 | <+Alek|gone> | too bad there's no downloadable version. :P |
| 06:09 | <@Derakon> | wget~ |
| 06:10 | <+Alek|gone> | although I theoretically could do that. <_< |
| 06:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | wget -r -l inf -np -nv -x www.lua.org/pil |
| 06:10 | <+Alek|gone> | but hey, I'm on windoze. wget isn't native here, and my bandwidth's null cause dad's torrenting. |
| 06:10 | | AnnoDomini [~farkoff@Nightstar-28886.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #Code |
| 06:10 | | mode/#code [+o AnnoDomini] by ChanServ |
| 06:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh, and -k and -K |
| 06:10 | <+Alek|gone> | ... |
| 06:10 | <+Alek|gone> | what do those options signify? >_> |
| 06:11 | <@Derakon> | -r is recursion, I assume. |
| 06:11 | | * Alek|gone nods. |
| 06:11 | <@Derakon> | -l I'm guessing is number of levels deep to go. |
| 06:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | Anyways. I learned it by reading the reference manual - chapters 2 and 5 (The Language and The Standard Libraries) are the relevant parts for using Lua itself, 3 and 4 deal with talking to it from C. |
| 06:11 | <@Derakon> | With the value being "infinite". |
| 06:11 | <@Derakon> | For the rest, I'd need the manpage. |
| 06:11 | | * Alek|gone nods. |
| 06:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | recursive, infinite levels, no parents (don't uprecurse), non-verbose, create directory tree, convert pages for local reading, make backups of converted pages. |
| 06:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh, and I also forgot -p, download prerequisite images and stylesheets even if they violate the recursion settings |
| 06:12 | <+Alek|gone> | woo |
| 06:12 | <+Alek|gone> | useful lil tool |
| 06:12 | | * Alek|gone plotplots. |
| 06:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | Indeed, it is the cornerstone of my Army Of Robots. |
| 06:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | So. The manual is concise and well-written. PiL is slightly outdated and goes more slowly, but also goes into more depth on what you can do with it (eg, one of the examples is building your own object system, IIRC). |
| 06:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | The LuaDirectory is all community-written stuff, not sure how well it works as a unified learning resource but there's some cool stuff in there. |
| 06:13 | <+Alek|gone> | I need my own place. so I can build my network. a server, a linux box, a chat/browse box, and a game box. <_< |
| 06:13 | <+Alek|gone> | at least. :P |
| 06:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | My server is also my chat/browse box. |
| 06:14 | <@Derakon> | I have all that on the same machine~ |
| 06:14 | <+Alek|gone> | so have I, but it can get a little overloaded. |
| 06:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | Orias: chatting, browsing, server (email, http, git, anything else I think of), mail reading, bittorrent, development |
| 06:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | (headless) |
| 06:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh, and file server |
| 06:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | Durandal: gaming, X terminal for Orias |
| 06:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | Leela: portable stuff (it's a laptop), X terminal for Orias |
| 06:15 | <+Alek|gone> | especially when I'm playing a fullscreen game and have a few moments and want to browse something or chat. switching is a memory mammoth. |
| 06:15 | <+Alek|gone> | and also bad for stability. -_- |
| 06:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah. |
| 06:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | That's why I run all that stuff on Orias. |
| 06:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | I run it inside NX and attach to it as needed from the other computers. |
| 06:16 | | * Alek|gone nods. |
| 06:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | This also means I can use Durandal (which has the big screen and the good keyboard), and when I start gaming, teleport it over to Leela. |
| 06:17 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 06:18 | <+Alek|gone> | anyway, night. |
| 06:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | 'night |
| 06:18 | | * Vornicus should set up a server. |
| 06:18 | | * Vornicus is currently using his personal machine as a server, and that's not cool. |
| 06:20 | | * Alek|gone ran a mud server for a bit. <_< |
| 06:20 | <+Alek|gone> | when I was into them. back around 00-01. |
| 06:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | I was able to scavenge a proxy from work and repurpose it as a server. |
| 06:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | (before that, Orias a 400MHz Celeron. Which was not fun to develop on, but on the plus side, it was completely fanless) |
| 06:31 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
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| 07:35 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
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| 12:43 | | mode/#code [+o Attilla] by ChanServ |
| 13:07 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 14:08 | | Bobsentme [Bobsentme@Nightstar-26585.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #code |
| 14:08 | < Bobsentme> | Eureka! |
| 14:08 | < Bobsentme> | (almost. Need help with a logic problem in C if someone has a few moments) |
| 14:18 | < Bobsentme> | HA! nm, got it. |
| 14:48 | < Bobsentme> | Ok, only problem with my program: I can't seem to delete the first record. |
| 14:48 | < Bobsentme> | No matter what. |
| 15:02 | | Alek|gone [~omegaboot@Nightstar-24892.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 15:04 | <@TheWatcher> | Bob: want me to have a look? I teach the language... |
| 15:04 | <@TheWatcher> | (for my sins) |
| 15:06 | < Bobsentme> | heh |
| 15:06 | < Bobsentme> | Yeah, if you could check my logic for me, please, I'd appreciate it. |
| 15:07 | < Bobsentme> | Voice for Pastebin? |
| 15:07 | < Bobsentme> | (with cherry on top) |
| 15:10 | | Alek [~omegaboot@Nightstar-5683.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #code |
| 15:15 | | mode/#code [+oooooo Alek Bobsentme crem EvilDarkLord himi jerith] by Vornicus |
| 15:15 | | mode/#code [+o Syloqs-AFH] by Vornicus |
| 16:23 | <@gnolam> | Hmm. I'm assuming all free OCR solutions are still full of fail? |
| 16:46 | <@gnolam> | (The last time I tried one, it had an error rate of ~80%...) |
| 16:47 | <@AnnoDomini> | You got 20% correct? Wow. |
| 16:53 | <@gnolam> | And that was on 26c latin text. |
| 16:54 | <@gnolam> | Now I need full unicode. :P |
| 16:54 | <@gnolam> | (Or at least Latin-1 + Cyrillic support) |
| 16:56 | | Emma [~nsJChat@Nightstar-17302.charles-city.k12.ia.us] has joined #code |
| 16:56 | < Emma> | Hello |
| 16:58 | <@gnolam> | Granted, this one isn't as important as my previous still-unfinished OCR project. |
| 16:58 | <@gnolam> | It could work as just the raw images with some croppijng. |
| 16:58 | <@gnolam> | *cropping |
| 16:58 | <@gnolam> | Didn't mean to go all Dutch. |
| 16:59 | < Emma> | O_O |
| 16:59 | < Emma> | uh.... |
| 17:01 | <@gnolam> | (Thought I'd digitize dad's old Russian phrasebook: http://www.cyd.liu.se/~torha229/temp/ERPB0092.jpg ) |
| 17:02 | | Emma [~nsJChat@Nightstar-17302.charles-city.k12.ia.us] has left #code [] |
| 17:02 | <@gnolam> | (And yes, the book is full of useful phrases like that. :)) |
| 17:04 | | * TheWatcher eyes |
| 17:05 | <@TheWatcher> | ... yes, very useful |
| 17:05 | <@TheWatcher> | If you want to get arrested |
| 17:08 | <@gnolam> | Although I think my favorite phrase in the entire book is "We are interested in works on cosmic ray research, the technical uses of radioisotopes in medicine and supersonics". Or possibly "Where can I see in action a beet-harvesting combine?". |
| 17:11 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
| 17:20 | <@AnnoDomini> | BEET-HARVESTING COMBINE. |
| 17:23 | <@gnolam> | Indeed. |
| 18:21 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 18:38 | <@Attilla> | Is that a latin transliteration on the right? |
| 18:59 | <@McMartin> | YOU MUST CONSTRUCT ADDITIONAL BEET-HARVESTING COMBINES |
| 18:59 | <@McMartin> | Man, that would have made Red Alert so much more awesome. |
| 19:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah. |
| 19:03 | <@TheWatcher> | Would have made it hard to beet, certainly. |
| 19:04 | | * TheWatcher ducks, runs |
| 19:04 | | * AnnoDomini is stunned by that foul attack, cannot pursue. |
| 19:09 | <@gnolam> | Attilla: yup. |
| 19:11 | <@gnolam> | The Combine in Half-Life 2 would be more interesting if they harvested beets too. |
| 19:12 | <@AnnoDomini> | gnolam: Do you have a scan of that beet quote? |
| 19:16 | <@gnolam> | Yup. Hold on a sec, I'll find it. |
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| 19:22 | <@gnolam> | AnnoDomini: http://www.cyd.liu.se/~torha229/temp/ERPB0094.jpg |
| 19:25 | <@AnnoDomini> | Thanks. |
| 19:25 | <@gnolam> | The first phrase on that page reminds me of That Mitchel and Webb Look's SS sketch, BTW. |
| 19:26 | <@McMartin> | ... |
| 19:26 | <@McMartin> | "What is the milk yield of this cow? How much wool does it give?" |
| 19:26 | <@gnolam> | ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO5WoLnOOlU ) |
| 19:36 | | * McMartin collects anagrams of "virtual machine". |
| 19:36 | <@McMartin> | I think my favorite is "Rheumatic Anvil". |
| 19:38 | <@McMartin> | Although "Evil Ham Curtain" is good too. |
| 19:39 | <@gnolam> | Heh. |
| 19:41 | <@gnolam> | "Humane civil rat"? :) |
| 19:41 | <@gnolam> | (Or its arch-nemesis, the "inhumane viral cat") |
| 19:49 | | * AnnoDomini uses his newly bought beard trimmer. It's much more convenient that scissors. |
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| 20:41 | <@gnolam> | I suggest a cotton-picking machine. Much more effective. |
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| 23:16 | <@TheWatcher> | Hm. Opinions - if I treat two RGB colours as vectors (x=R, y=G, z=B) and worked out the angle between them, would it be a good indicator of similarity? I think so, but... |
| 23:18 | <@TheWatcher> | wate, found perl modules to calculate similarity for me, nevermind |
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| --- Log closed Tue Nov 25 00:00:05 2008 |