| --- Log opened Sun Sep 14 00:00:25 2008 |
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| 00:14 | | * McMartin reads about Win32 64-bit file pointers, which are horrific |
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| 00:15 | <@McMartin> | The nicest thing I can say about them is that I suspect they were designed to be binary compatible with the 32-bit API without recompilation. |
| 00:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | I take it that they are neither hugs, nor kittens. |
| 00:18 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 00:18 | <@McMartin> | You pass in a pointer to a 32-bit location to be filled with the upper 32 bits. |
| 00:18 | <@McMartin> | Which in Win9x is required to always be NULL. |
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| 00:19 | <@McMartin> | There's enough platform-specific support for this with unions and the like that I *think* you could implement lseek and fseek individually as #defines on top of this. |
| 00:21 | <@McMartin> | It does however mean that you'd have to be a bit more careful about how you set up your stdint.h |
| 00:22 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 00:22 | <@McMartin> | The other problem is ugly but I can't fault it outright. |
| 00:23 | <@McMartin> | They have the standard C-style thing where you return either the useful value or an error code, but when dealing with huge files the "error code" might be a valid result |
| 00:23 | <@McMartin> | Which means you have to check the equivalent of errno to ensure that your "error" actually was one. |
| 00:24 | <@McMartin> | Which is ugly but I see no way around it that doesn't translate to "change your ABI" or "check errno all the time anyway". |
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| 00:24 | <@McMartin> | And I strongly suspect the former was being forbidden by the spec. |
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| 00:31 | <@McMartin> | That said, it's also vastly more common in the API to have everything only return a status code, with all interesting results being passed out via pointer argument |
| 00:31 | <@McMartin> | However, the seek routines were not among them. |
| 00:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | I'm not sure if the ability to return multiple values would make C better or worse. |
| 00:36 | <@McMartin> | Yeah |
| 00:36 | <@McMartin> | Hence why my reaction to this is "Well, this is ugly, and it's not POSIX, but I can't exactly say it's wrong" |
| 00:36 | | * Bob_work contemplates C being able to return multiple values |
| 00:37 | | * Bob_work 's head explodes under the pressure. |
| 00:37 | <@McMartin> | C *can* return multiple values, just not with convenient syntax. |
| 00:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | int result,error = call(...); if (error) { ...error handler goes here... } |
| 00:37 | <@McMartin> | Right. |
| 00:37 | <@McMartin> | While you have to do a struct value copy now (which is Not The Accepted Practice, but which matches TF's example)... |
| 00:38 | < Bob_work> | I thought you meant two values at once. Such as "return 0...and return 1." or some such. |
| 00:38 | <@McMartin> | ... or pass in pointers as arguments and have the function write through them (which is). |
| 00:38 | <@McMartin> | He does. |
| 00:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | Bob_work: yes. |
| 00:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | That is exactly what I mean. |
| 00:38 | <@Vornicus> | except in two bins, not just one bin with the things superimposed. |
| 00:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | You can get the same effect with structs or pointers, but it's not nearly as convenient. |
| 00:38 | | * Bob_work nods |
| 00:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | Structs you have to typedef ahead of time, pointers just require more noise. |
| 00:39 | <@McMartin> | You can also get the same effect by having "tuple" as a basic type, and that's pretty much exactly as convenient. |
| 00:39 | <@McMartin> | But tends to require uniform reference, which C does not have. |
| 00:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | And it means rather than having (return values) (function) (arguments), you have (return value) (function) (arguments and some other return values) |
| 00:40 | <@McMartin> | Yeah. |
| 00:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah, the issue with doing that in C is that if you have, say, one function that returns char*,int and another that returns int,int you need two tuple types. |
| 00:40 | <@McMartin> | And I must admit, if you are going that route, the one that gets actually returned should always be the status code. |
| 00:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 00:40 | <@McMartin> | Ehn, that's less of a problem than having <char *, int> vs <uint64_t, int> |
| 00:41 | <@McMartin> | Where whether this works or not depends on whether you're on a 32-bit or 64-bit arch |
| 00:41 | <@McMartin> | Hm. So does yours, really. |
| 00:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah. That was rather my point. |
| 00:41 | <@McMartin> | <char, int> vs. <int, int>, then. |
| 00:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | You can't just have one generic "tuple" |
| 00:42 | <@McMartin> | Which fails everywhere~ |
| 00:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | You need a new struct typedef'd for each possible multi-return signature. |
| 00:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hence my declaring it even less convenient than pointers, although it does at least put all the return values on one side of the call. |
| 00:43 | <@McMartin> | Right |
| 00:44 | <@McMartin> | And if you treat status code as special (a la errno but without the globaltasticness) you can still claim the return values are also all on one side of the call. |
| 00:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | Only if you say that the status code is only return value that's actually a return value! |
| 00:45 | <@McMartin> | No, I'm saing it's the only one that isn't~ |
| 00:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah |
| 00:45 | <@McMartin> | The others may still be on the same side as the argument, but they're still all on the same side. |
| 00:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah |
| 00:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | I see what you're saying |
| 00:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | My objection is that they aren't on their own side |
| 00:47 | <@McMartin> | Also, looking through the console I/O stuff, it looks sensible enough that I am now entirely baffled as to why there is no native curses port. |
| 00:50 | <@McMartin> | Also, stock frotz integration is currently weaksauce enough that I'm considering working more on nfrotz itself. |
| 00:50 | <@McMartin> | In particular, making color selections work the way they were originally documented. |
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| 01:00 | | * ToxicFrog works on a lexer |
| 01:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | I am finally having to do format string processing properly ?? |
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| 01:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | Lexer design sanity check. |
| 01:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | You give it a list of regex -> name mappings and a string. |
| 01:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | It iterates over the list of regexes in order, anchored to the start of the string. |
| 01:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | When it finds one that matches, it adds the name + any captures to the token list, trims the part of the string that matched, and repeats. |
| 01:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | It finishes when it runs out of string or when the start of the string does not match any of the regexes. |
| 01:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | In the former case it returns the token list; in the latter case an error. |
| 01:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | Sound good? |
| 01:41 | < Bob_work> | It's over my head, sorry. |
| 01:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | This sounds like an excuse to give a lecture on lexer theory~ |
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| 01:47 | <@Vornicus> | Bones uses a list of strings which it then sorts in descending length order for most symbols, and then a regex for name/number parsing. |
| 01:47 | <@Vornicus> | Just one regex at the end. It's easier to see what's going on with that. |
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| 01:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | Not practical here. There are no keywords. |
| 01:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | There are a few fixed symbols and then several distinct kinds of pattern. |
| 01:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | Anyways, this is actually a general purpose lexer engine. |
| 01:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | You could pass it keywords if you wanted. |
| 01:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Just escape any part of them that's significant to string.find and you're good. |
| 01:56 | < Shoukanjuu> | Since it was more practical to have everything work as usual, over DHCP, instead of over static, I'll keep it like that for now... |
| 01:56 | < Shoukanjuu> | Soon, though. Soon, it'll be fixed up >_> |
| 01:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | If it's using SMB, then keep it as DHCP. |
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| 01:57 | < Shoukanjuu> | I don't know *what* it is using |
| 01:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | SMB works by doing horrible things with broadcasts and doesn't care what IP the nodes have. |
| 01:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | It should say in the manual. |
| 01:57 | < Shoukanjuu> | I don't even know where this came from. :P |
| 01:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | ... |
| 01:58 | < Shoukanjuu> | My grandpa had the thing in the closet, and I got it to work just fine |
| 01:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | So, you have a NAS that appeared out of nowhere, with no documentation, and no, say, model number you could use to look up the documentation, basically no identifying marks of any kind, and you plugged it into your network? |
| 01:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | Because that's what you seem to be saying. |
| 01:59 | < Shoukanjuu> | Oh, it's got identification, I just didn't think there was much more than what seemed to be. I'm of course, an idiot. |
| 01:59 | < Shoukanjuu> | The manual is bound to be somewhere, but I suppose looking it up will work better |
| 02:00 | < Shoukanjuu> | But I'm morbidly lazy, and, after all I did today, I'd rather not even mess with it...Today, anyway |
| 02:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Anyways, your typical NAS will configure itself via DHCP, and then present its drives via SMB, at which point it should appear in any SMB server browser (fusesmb, nautilus smb://, windows Network Neighborhood, etc) |
| 02:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Some of them use NFS, or other, weirder things |
| 02:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | You must have access to its configuration settings, though, if you were able to change its IP settings |
| 02:02 | | * McMartin reads backscroll |
| 02:02 | < Shoukanjuu> | Oh, yes. over DHCP, it worked fine, and since the computers we're using are macs |
| 02:02 | < Shoukanjuu> | I figured out how to access them |
| 02:02 | < Shoukanjuu> | I do, actually |
| 02:02 | <@McMartin> | Classically, you need to make sure that your lexer is also eating the largest possible chunk with your regex. |
| 02:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | "over DHCP" isn't the right term; DHCP is an autoconfiguration protocol |
| 02:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | It will configure itself using DHCP, and then the actual file shuffling will take place over SMB or NFS or whatever else |
| 02:03 | < Shoukanjuu> | Yes, of course. |
| 02:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: it is the responsibility of the regex writer to put them in the correct order, in this case |
| 02:03 | <@McMartin> | Indeed. |
| 02:04 | <@McMartin> | Your description sounds roughly similar to lex |
| 02:04 | <@McMartin> | Though plausibly a lot slower because it compiles it to a single state machine with multiple accept states. |
| 02:04 | < Shoukanjuu> | And I do have access to the configs. I set a manual IP...and for some reason, I could still find it, when everything was set |
| 02:04 | < Shoukanjuu> | But no other computer would |
| 02:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | Similar, except instead of building a DFA it just calls string.match over and over again |
| 02:04 | <@McMartin> | Yeah |
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| 02:04 | < Shoukanjuu> | Which confused me, prompting me to ask |
| 02:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | And yeah, it's going to be slower than lex, but it's also going to be a lot simpler. And it's going to be faster than the current implementation, which is already "fast enough"... |
| 02:05 | <@McMartin> | Sousdn good then |
| 02:05 | < Shoukanjuu> | Disruptions in other shared devices, ones that weren't ON the network directly, was another problem, that was re-fixed by setting DHCP again. |
| 02:07 | < Shoukanjuu> | Of course, I know that's what the problem was, I just didn't want to...do anything with it to make sure everything worked...because it would take too long......and my port forwarding still didn't work *anyway* |
| 02:08 | < Shoukanjuu> | So I'll look at it t omorrow XD; |
| 02:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok, now I just need to implement it. |
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| 02:21 | <@MyCatVerbs> | Reiv[DeepT]: *really* late reply: /server with no arguments, prints a list of the servers that you're connected to. You can just throw them into nslookup/dig/whatever to look them up. |
| 02:22 | <@MyCatVerbs> | Dammit. |
| 02:22 | | * MyCatVerbs sucks at timing. |
| 02:22 | <@MyCatVerbs> | FUCK YOU, linear progression of time. One second per second my ass! :( |
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| 15:30 | | * gnolam barfs on all things font-related. |
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| 18:24 | | * gnolam ponders semiotics. |
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| 19:33 | < Shoukanjuu> | NFS, SMB/CIFS |
| 19:34 | <@AnnoDomini> | PROMOTIONS! |
| 19:34 | < Shoukanjuu> | I completely forgot that I can set my IP outside the router's DHCP range for it to be static. This problem is solved. The computers can now connect to the networked drive, too. |
| 19:34 | < Shoukanjuu> | However, it's not in the sidebar on my grandad's Mac, so now I'll never hear the end of it. |
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| 22:44 | <@McMartin> | Man, slow day |
| 22:45 | <@gnolam> | Sundays usually are. |
| 22:45 | < Consul> | We're getting hammered by rain from Ike. I'm sitting inside eating smores. :-) |
| 22:46 | < GeekSoldier> | I woke to rain and wind from Ike. |
| 22:46 | <@AnnoDomini> | I would probably be playing Shadowrun, but the GM didn't show, so I'm finding out firsthand why Anita Blake is made of fail and lose. |
| 22:48 | < Consul> | I love the rain. |
| 22:49 | <@gnolam> | AnnoDomini: ... why. Why why why WHY? |
| 22:49 | < Consul> | Delilah? |
| 22:49 | <@AnnoDomini> | I assume your question pertains why I am reading this. |
| 22:49 | <@gnolam> | Yes. |
| 22:50 | <@AnnoDomini> | Hm. Probably the same reason I play Nethack occassionally. |
| 22:50 | <@AnnoDomini> | Only Nethack is more awesome. |
| 22:50 | <@AnnoDomini> | And less bad writing. |
| 22:50 | <@gnolam> | Suddenly, Nethack has become dirty to me. |
| 22:50 | | * AnnoDomini laughs. |
| 22:51 | < Consul> | I've been told Anita Blake is basically soft porn for vampire book lovers. |
| 22:51 | <@AnnoDomini> | Consul: Well, I'm 1/6th in and those overtones wasted absolutely no time to crop up. |
| 22:51 | < Consul> | Heh |
| 22:52 | < Consul> | Read "Elantris" or the Mistborn books. Excellent, they are. :-) |
| 22:52 | < Consul> | Brandon Sanderson. |
| 22:52 | < Consul> | Well, if you like epic fantasy. If not, then they aren't. |
| 22:52 | <@AnnoDomini> | I like epic fantasy. |
| 22:53 | <@McMartin> | Consul: How far inland are you? |
| 22:53 | < Consul> | Unfortunately, the last Mistborn book isn't out yet. October, I've heard. |
| 22:53 | | * McMartin takes this opportunity to make George R. R. Martin (no relation) write faster |
| 22:53 | < Consul> | McMartin, I'm right at the mouth of Lake Huron, where it drains into the St. Clair River. |
| 22:53 | <@AnnoDomini> | McMartin: Word. |
| 22:53 | <@AnnoDomini> | Goddamn, I want the next book. :E |
| 22:54 | <@McMartin> | Consul: My knowledge of the waterways of Texas is pretty weak. What city is that? |
| 22:54 | < Consul> | Umm, Texas? |
| 22:54 | < Consul> | I'm in the Great Lakes area. |
| 22:54 | < Consul> | Lake Huron. |
| 22:54 | <@McMartin> | Or, wait, no wonder I'm confused. |
| 22:54 | <@McMartin> | Yeah |
| 22:54 | < Consul> | Port Huron is the town. |
| 22:54 | <@McMartin> | I was trying to place a "Lake Huron" in the initial-hit area and, naturally, drawing a blank. |
| 22:54 | < Consul> | Ike is reaching this for north, though by now, it's just a rainstorm. |
| 22:55 | < Consul> | Lucky us, I guess. |
| 22:55 | <@AnnoDomini> | Compared to the only other woman-written romance novel I've read, AB starts off with the vampire/lycanthropic rape thing very, very early. |
| 22:56 | < Consul> | Well, that leaves me not wanting to read it. |
| 22:56 | < Consul> | I don't like vampire novels, anyway. |
| 22:56 | < Consul> | Well, I shouldn't say that. |
| 22:57 | < Consul> | I wasn't much into fantasy until I had read Sanderson's works. |
| 22:57 | <@AnnoDomini> | But besides that, my gripe is that the protagonist is lame. For someone who killed 14 vampires, as it says in the book, I expected a bit more competence and badassery. |
| 22:57 | <@McMartin> | Maybe they were angsty White Wolf-brand vampires who were too busy writing bad poetry to put up a fight. |
| 22:57 | | * AnnoDomini laughs. |
| 22:58 | | * McMartin is actually having the opposite problem right now in a game he's playing. |
| 22:58 | <@AnnoDomini> | Oh? |
| 22:58 | <@McMartin> | <Final Boss> How dare you defy me, mortal? I am a god!!!! |
| 22:58 | <@McMartin> | <PC> Totally defying, right here. |
| 22:58 | <@McMartin> | <Player> You have no idae, final boss, how hollow a threat that is. We've killed, like, six gods already. |
| 22:58 | <@AnnoDomini> | That sounds fairly awesome. |
| 22:59 | <@McMartin> | Unfortunately, naming the game is now a spoiler~ |
| 22:59 | < Consul> | Man, if I had a nickel for every time I heard "I am a god!"... |
| 22:59 | <@AnnoDomini> | Don't turn into a giant snake. It never helps. |
| 23:00 | < Consul> | Unless you're on a plane. |
| 23:00 | <@McMartin> | But yeah, I mean, the final confrontation is supposed to be, you know, dramatic. |
| 23:00 | <@McMartin> | It's just that the appropriate emotion is contempt. |
| 23:01 | <@McMartin> | (He says, not having actually beaten it yet. We'll see.) |
| 23:01 | <@AnnoDomini> | You know what I'd've done there, as the game designer? Rocks Fall Party Member dies. Just like that. |
| 23:01 | < Shoukanjuu> | I am god! God cannot die! |
| 23:01 | <@AnnoDomini> | The others get less contemptous instantly. :P |
| 23:01 | <@McMartin> | Only one character~ |
| 23:02 | <@McMartin> | Also, immunity to falling rocks is like the first power you get. |
| 23:02 | <@AnnoDomini> | LOL. |
| 23:02 | < Shoukanjuu> | XD |
| 23:02 | <@AnnoDomini> | This sounds like an awesome game. |
| 23:02 | <@McMartin> | Which you can then use to annihilate the first optional boss, which I didn't realize until someone else started playing through. |
| 23:02 | <@AnnoDomini> | Speaking of awesome games, I need to obtain God of War 2. |
| 23:02 | <@McMartin> | http://bit-blot.com/ |
| 23:02 | < Shoukanjuu> | Breath of Fire 2 >_> |
| 23:03 | <@McMartin> | It starts out being all cheery and new age and singing at flowers. |
| 23:03 | <@McMartin> | Then the mood shifts dramatically. |
| 23:03 | <@McMartin> | Twice. |
| 23:03 | < Shoukanjuu> | Ahaha |
| 23:03 | < Shoukanjuu> | Speaking of awesome games, you've played 'Tales of' games, right? |
| 23:03 | <@McMartin> | (The flower-singing is important, though; this is Metroid and Loom beat up God of War and Ecco the Dolphin and then go looting Atlantis) |
| 23:03 | <@AnnoDomini> | Shoukanjuu: Yeah. |
| 23:03 | <@AnnoDomini> | I finished Tales of Phantasia. |
| 23:04 | <@AnnoDomini> | I tried Tales of Destiny, but it was far less awesome. |
| 23:04 | < Shoukanjuu> | Tales of Vesperia has got to be the most refreshing thing ever |
| 23:04 | < Shoukanjuu> | No useless characters letting the bad guy go |
| 23:05 | < Shoukanjuu> | upwards of TEN TIMES |
| 23:05 | < Shoukanjuu> | I'm looking at you, TotA |
| 23:05 | <@McMartin> | TotA? |
| 23:05 | < Shoukanjuu> | Tales of the Abyss >_> |
| 23:06 | < Shoukanjuu> | At the very least, it's refreshing, looking at the later games. |
| 23:06 | <@AnnoDomini> | ToP was awesome. "Yeah, I know you have good reasons for doing what you're doing. No, I don't care. I'm still going to kill you." |
| 23:06 | < Shoukanjuu> | I, myself, only played and finished Phantasia, Eternia, and Symphonia, before playing this, because I couldn't bear to play Abyss anymore |
| 23:06 | < Shoukanjuu> | >_> |
| 23:06 | < Shoukanjuu> | XD |
| 23:06 | < Shoukanjuu> | Speaking of that |
| 23:07 | < Shoukanjuu> | Dhaos, Shizel, Barbatos, and Kratos, in cameos |
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| 23:16 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[t-2] |
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| 23:44 | <@gnolam> | Argh. |
| 23:44 | | * gnolam goes on a Unit Crusade. |
| 23:46 | <@McMartin> | Oh hey, new build of I7 out. |
| 23:47 | | * Finerty goes to examine changelog. |
| 23:48 | <@McMartin> | Nothing hugely exciting, mostly just some generalization. |
| 23:48 | <@McMartin> | Better I7->I6 interface as well as a lesser need for it~ |
| 23:50 | | * McMartin does want a Z-Boson Destructorator, though. |
| 23:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | Lexemes: atom control prerepeat postrepeat table group |
| 23:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh, and name |
| 23:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | Now to work out what the emitted code for each of them is. |
| 23:56 | <@McMartin> | Ahaha |
| 23:56 | <@McMartin> | Bug fixed whereby the sentence |
| 23:56 | <@McMartin> | Here is everywhere. |
| 23:56 | <@McMartin> | would crash Inform rather than produce an outraged problem message. |
| 23:56 | <@McMartin> | (Yes, somebody tried this.) |
| 23:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Pfft |
| 23:58 | <@McMartin> | The big change from my perspective as an extension author is that you can now directly hang properties on enumerated types |
| 23:58 | <@McMartin> | This makes a great deal of the behind-the-scenes table searching jackassery go away. |
| 23:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | Woot |
| 23:59 | <@McMartin> | And allows commands like "Now the text of bob_says_die is 'lolpwnt'." |
| 23:59 | <@McMartin> | As opposed to the currently necessary "Change the text corresponding to a quip of bob_says_die in the Table Of Quip Texts to 'lolpwnt'." |
| 23:59 | <@Finerty> | Are you.... a god? |
| 23:59 | < Shoukanjuu> | >_> |
| 23:59 | <@McMartin> | [1] Yes |
| 23:59 | <@McMartin> | [2] No |
| 23:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | Not yet. |
| 23:59 | <@McMartin> | > |
| --- Log closed Mon Sep 15 00:00:26 2008 |