| --- Log opened Tue Aug 19 00:00:08 2008 |
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| 01:01 | < gnolam> | Grah. |
| 01:01 | | * gnolam slaps Atmel. |
| 01:02 | < gnolam> | They make awesome microcontrollers, but providing a table where you can compare the capabilities of all their different devices is apparently beneath them. |
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| 02:37 | <@McMartin> | TF: Actually, the problem *I* was having had to do with the fact that I was mounting the disks read-only but due to a bug in my custom FS, I wasn't properly announcing this. |
| 02:37 | <@McMartin> | Wackiness Ensued. |
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| 02:57 | < Reiver> | You have a custom FS? |
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| 03:01 | <@McMartin> | Sort of. |
| 03:01 | <@McMartin> | Job-related stuff. |
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| 03:28 | < Consul> | Blargh. |
| 03:28 | < Consul> | I'm apparently less than farking worthless as a coder. |
| 03:28 | < Consul> | I should give up and go make pizzas instead. |
| 03:29 | < Consul> | I thought SQLite would make this job easier. |
| 03:29 | < Consul> | But no... |
| 03:29 | < Consul> | It's easy if you use a scripting language, sure. |
| 03:30 | < Consul> | But it's really hard if you use low level languages. |
| 03:30 | < Consul> | Especially when nobody has written word one of a tutorial for said lower-level languages. |
| 03:30 | < Consul> | Ask the mailing list, and they say, "Oh, just go buy this $50+ book." |
| 03:32 | < Consul> | Apparently, I'm supposed to magically know everything. |
| 03:44 | < Consul> | I need that "C++ and SQLite for Engineers" tutorial. |
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| 03:55 | <@McMartin> | You may be able to pull some of the books from the libraries. |
| 03:56 | < Consul> | I already checked. No go. |
| 03:57 | < Consul> | I'll go talk to a librarian about doing a wider search on the ILL system, but that costs me money. Not as much as a copy of the book does, though. |
| 03:57 | < Consul> | I'm just so tired of feeling fucking worthless. |
| 03:58 | < Consul> | I need to get to the parts of this project that I can actually make progress on. |
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| 03:58 | < Consul> | The stuff that needs a mathemetician and an engineer more than a programmer. |
| 04:01 | <@McMartin> | You mentioned that this stuff was easy in scripting language. |
| 04:02 | <@McMartin> | If the design uniquely requires your skills, is there any reason you can't write prototypes in the scripting languages and hand them off to systems guys? |
| 04:03 | < Consul> | The fact that it's an open source project and only two guys who can't advertise themselves yet to find more coders because not enough is done? |
| 04:03 | <@McMartin> | If the scripting language can produce waveforms that can be played - albeit not in realtime - that's an ad. |
| 04:03 | <@McMartin> | "Help us make this work in realtime" |
| 04:05 | < Consul> | I don't see the point to that. We're already making waveforms in real time. |
| 04:05 | < Consul> | What we aren't making are complete synths with presets and undo and all that stuff. |
| 04:06 | <@McMartin> | Er, so, by "waveform" here I mean "raw sound data that could be played", not necessarily the results of an oscillator. |
| 04:06 | <@McMartin> | "Help us make $THIS_PROJECT work in realtime instead of only being usable to make these cool-sounding AIFFs." |
| 04:07 | < Consul> | Pardon me for being incredibly cynical. |
| 04:08 | < Consul> | But I honestly and truly believe that Linux audio coders won't pay us any attention until we've already killed every other open source synthesis option out there. |
| 04:08 | <@McMartin> | The alternative is to get the experience yourself, or teach someone everything you know about sound systems. |
| 04:08 | < Consul> | The problem is, their all as cynical as I am. |
| 04:08 | < Consul> | they're |
| 04:08 | <@McMartin> | And if you need 10 years of training to do either thing, then either (a) take 20 years time out to train or (b) get two people who are already good at what they do, which are different things. |
| 04:08 | <@McMartin> | These are your only choices. |
| 04:09 | < Consul> | In twenty years, I'll be dead from health complications, and I won't care anymore. |
| 04:10 | < Consul> | All I want to do is make music. |
| 04:10 | <@McMartin> | If this can be done with a scripting language, then you're effectively just computing some function, right? |
| 04:10 | <@McMartin> | Why do you need the systems programmer to be an audio specialist? |
| 04:10 | < Consul> | I should just go buy NI Komplete, make some music, and stop giving a crap about Linux audio. |
| 04:11 | <@McMartin> | If your goal is to have stuff to use, and your choice is (a) buy something or (b) write it yourself, and (b) requires "first, learn to write", then, uh, yeah. |
| 04:11 | < Consul> | I'm so broke, I can barely make my next cel phone bill. |
| 04:12 | < Consul> | The economic breakdown of late has hit me and my family really hard. |
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| 04:12 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, but unless you're actually interested in the *writing* of it, it's just going to be endless frustration. |
| 04:13 | < Consul> | So, I'm basically being told by my circumstances that I somehow don't deserve to do what I want. I don't like being told that. |
| 04:13 | <@McMartin> | It's the difference between wanting to write and wanting to have written. |
| 04:13 | <@McMartin> | This shows up throughout all the arts, and it shows up in the crafts as well. |
| 04:13 | < Consul> | Well, you're right. I care about the goal, not the coding. |
| 04:14 | < Consul> | Obviously, I can make DSP routines work. I mocked one up today in Python that worked great. |
| 04:15 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, so if these are designs they don't have, you should at least *try* to recruit someone to implement the Python prototype in a production language, be that C++ or FORTRAN or whatever it is they use. |
| 04:16 | < Consul> | What? |
| 04:16 | < Consul> | The DSP stuff isn't the issue. |
| 04:16 | < Consul> | That's just math in any language. |
| 04:17 | < Consul> | It's the computer science bits, the data structures and use of external libraries and being able to understand the API docs, that's the issue. |
| 04:17 | <@McMartin> | "just math" |
| 04:17 | <@McMartin> | Isn't the skill you bring to the table here knowing which math needs to be done? |
| 04:17 | < Consul> | And the logic of how data structures work with each other. |
| 04:18 | <@McMartin> | That's what you were learning when the other guys were learning linked lists. |
| 04:18 | < Consul> | Basically, yes. |
| 04:18 | <@McMartin> | So, this is why I counsel having two people on the project. |
| 04:19 | <@McMartin> | If you can design stuff in python - showing what math needs to be done - those can be transformed into something in the appropriate language that plays right with the rest of the universe. |
| 04:19 | < Consul> | I'll talk to Anders about seeing if we can find a third person with the CS background. |
| 04:22 | < Consul> | He also has a stronger CS background than I do. |
| 04:23 | < Consul> | Maybe he'll take it, and free me to get back to FAUST and low-latency FFT research and the fun math stuff. |
| 04:28 | < Consul> | But there's still this part of me that says I'm giving up because I'm too stupid, and that life always throws unpleasant tasks at us, and skipping over them just because we don't like them makes us worthless as humans. |
| 04:28 | < Consul> | That I have to suffer through the bad as well as enjoy the good, in order to be a worthwhile person. |
| 04:30 | <@McMartin> | This is like believing that an author isn't really an author unless they can construct and operate their printing press and marketing arm. |
| 04:30 | < Consul> | But right now, I really don't care. I'm tired, I'm going to bed. |
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| 16:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | (on the topic of RTL text widgets in windows...) |
| 16:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | <hobofood> As Zhentar said, it's pretty fucking difficult. When I had to make some controls that supported Arabic script it was pretty much a month-long nightmare. The kind of nightmare that you can't wake up from and there are snakes eating you and frogs erupting from your mouth every time you talk and you see your loved ones torn limb from limb in front of you every five minutes. |
| 16:43 | <@Reiver> | O.o |
| 16:43 | <@Reiver> | TF, you... have a way with words, you know that? |
| 16:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | I didn't write that, hobofood did. |
| 16:44 | <@Reiver> | Nonetheless. |
| 16:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | I've never had to work on RTL text support, thankfully. |
| 16:44 | <@Reiver> | You tend to pick up on such matters. |
| 16:44 | <@Reiver> | Be they origional or otherwise~ |
| 17:09 | <@McMartin> | Is arabic like Hebrew in that if you're mixing letters and, say, numbers, you have to shift from RTL and LTR in midline? |
| 17:14 | | EvilDarkLord is now known as Zenon |
| 17:18 | <@gnolam> | Yep. |
| 17:21 | | * McMartin mails off release candidate 2 of one of his collab projects, heads to work |
| 17:32 | | * TheWatcher makes a note to avoid ever working on anything that supports hebrew or arabic |
| 17:32 | <@TheWatcher> | unicode is enough of a pain in the arse, without direction issues too... |
| 17:40 | <@gnolam> | Meh. In general, the LTR-RTL thingy is a minor concern compared to all the other problems you face with true multilingual support. |
| 17:41 | <@gnolam> | Oh great. There goes the connection. |
| 17:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | Wow. |
| 17:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | This error message from cron makes for some awesome ASCII art. |
| 17:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | I think I need to do something about samba's logging habits. |
| 17:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | In particular, filenames like /var/log/samba/log.winbindd.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1. 1.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 are not cool. |
| 17:59 | < Shoukanjuu> | Duct tape? *holds a roll of duct tape* |
| 18:00 | <@gnolam> | Keep your kinky games in #Programmerlove. |
| 18:01 | < Shoukanjuu> | Oh... >_> |
| 18:01 | | * Shoukanjuu brings the duct tape elsewhere. |
| 18:01 | < Shoukanjuu> | It seems my 360's laser burnt out...but AFTER the cable wore down a bit. |
| 18:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hmm. |
| 18:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | Maybe it's not a samba issue, but a logrotate issue. |
| 18:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...yep, it's a logrotate issue |
| 18:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | What's wrong with this log pattern: /var/log/samba/log.*? |
| 18:13 | < Shoukanjuu> | ....lack of asterisks? ?\o_?/? |
| 18:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | No. |
| 18:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | Consider the fact that this means logrotate will rotate, say, log.winbindd to log.winbindd.1, just as it should. |
| 18:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...then, next week, it will rotate it to log.winbindd.1.1, since log.* matches not just the files generated by samba, but the files generated by logwatch too. |
| 18:20 | < Shoukanjuu> | .....Oh. I'm going to go over here to the beginner corner and do little beginner things like printer batch files |
| 18:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | End result is that it has so many logfiles, with such long filenames, that logwatch can't run because the maximum command line length has been exceeded, at which point cron sends me mail bitching about it. |
| 18:25 | < Shoukanjuu> | how does one solve this problem? |
| 18:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | The immediate fix (ie, to get logwatch working again) is to delete these hundreds of extra log files. |
| 18:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | The long term fix (ie, to stop it from happening again) is trickier. |
| 18:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | You can't just give it a better pattern, because samba's log style is "log.<subsystem name or host name or IP address>", and logrotate's globbing expressions aren't powerful enough for that. |
| 18:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | What I've done is changed samba's logging style so that it instead names things '<stuff>.log' and then entered *.log as the logrotate pattern. |
| 18:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | An alternative would be to use the olddir directive to logrotate, so that it moves rotated logs into a seperate directory and thus doesn't try to rotate them again next week. |
| 18:36 | < Shoukanjuu> | Hey, I understand that! |
| 18:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | I'll kind of miss the cool ASCII art that results in my mailbox when cron lists the entire offending command, but I won't miss logwatch breaking every six months. |
| 18:42 | < Shoukanjuu> | hehehehe |
| 18:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | (although logwatch doesn't really tell me much of interest these days - it's always "500 breakin attempts against SSH, SMB is still really fucking noisy, and sdj is nearly full") |
| 18:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | (it's the messages from mdadm that I really need to watch out for) |
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| 21:39 | <@gnolam> | OH SWEET MOTHER OF GOD |
| 21:39 | < Shoukanjuu> | O_o' |
| 21:39 | <@gnolam> | Whoever is in charge of MinGW's website shouldn't just be fired. He should be taken out and /shot/. |
| 21:40 | <@gnolam> | The old page was plain bad. |
| 21:40 | <@gnolam> | The new one is a goddamned usability /abomination/. |
| 21:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | ? |
| 21:41 | | * ToxicFrog eyes it |
| 21:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | You know, a link to the actual fucking software would be nice. |
| 21:41 | | * TheWatcher also eyes |
| 21:41 | <@TheWatcher> | ... |
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| --- Log closed Wed Aug 20 00:00:17 2008 |