| --- Log opened Mon Jun 30 00:00:15 2008 |
| 01:42 | <@Reiver> | gnolam: I'm looking for a machine that sits in the 'sweet spot' of price/performance. |
| 01:43 | <@Reiver> | Best GB/$/value hard drives, RAM, etc. |
| 01:43 | < Shoukanjuu> | I'd suggest buying a floor model if it's for your parents, unless they need to do something with high end performance |
| 01:44 | < Shoukanjuu> | floor model, anything not an emachine, and if need be, install a new HDD, add some RAM |
| 01:44 | <@Reiver> | I don't mind doing it by hand. |
| 01:45 | <@Reiver> | Further, they just need the tower itself - their old one fritzed in a recent storm. |
| 01:45 | <@Reiver> | (Or so they claim. That the LCD wasn't hurt makes me suspect it was Just Old.) |
| 01:45 | < Shoukanjuu> | I bought a machine off newegg for 300 or so |
| 01:46 | <@Reiver> | Ah, yes. |
| 01:46 | <@Reiver> | I live in NZ. |
| 01:46 | < Shoukanjuu> | was going to use it for a small scale server box |
| 01:46 | < Shoukanjuu> | ....Ah. |
| 01:46 | <@Reiver> | Premade hardware is substantially more expensive. |
| 01:46 | < Shoukanjuu> | Mmm... |
| 01:47 | < Shoukanjuu> | I don't like shopping for things like that, since I have no idea on how to make a mac box without mac specific hardware to a certain extent |
| 01:47 | < Shoukanjuu> | or where to GET said hardware |
| 01:47 | <@McMartin> | Mac boxes are pretty much entirely premade. |
| 01:48 | < Shoukanjuu> | I know. |
| 01:48 | < Shoukanjuu> | That's...the problem |
| 01:48 | < Shoukanjuu> | I don't do a lot of anything else :/ |
| 01:50 | <@gnolam> | Reiver: then I'd go for a basic Core 2 / DDR2 setup. |
| 01:50 | < Shoukanjuu> | Yeah, that'd work |
| 01:52 | <@gnolam> | Any brand name motherboard should work. I'd probably go with a P35-based one, just because, well, they're proven. |
| 01:52 | <@Reiver> | Aha. |
| 01:52 | <@Reiver> | No particular Quirks with modern graphics cards? |
| 01:54 | <@gnolam> | I'd go Nvidia under Windows at least, since ATI's drivers are... quirky. |
| 01:55 | <@gnolam> | (And by that I mean that they apparently feed their developers a diet of Sugar Frosted Chocolate Crack) |
| 01:56 | <@gnolam> | (And that they, as far as I can see, don't even /have/ a QA department) |
| 01:57 | <@gnolam> | But unless they're going to try to max out the settings in Crysis, any old card will do, basically. |
| 02:09 | | * Finerty should rebuild the guts of one of his computers. |
| 02:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | ErikMesoy|sleep: I'm always here. |
| 02:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | I'm just not always here. |
| 02:24 | < Shoukanjuu> | See? See!? I told you! |
| 02:25 | < Shoukanjuu> | Toxic Frog is everything. He is you, me, himself...and yet not himself, you, or me |
| 02:25 | < Shoukanjuu> | He is both one anf zero, signed and unsigned |
| 02:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | Re: sweet spots: for HDDs, 320 or 500 GB. For RAM, 1-2GB. For CPU, I'm not sure if it's Core 2 or A64 X2 this week. Former is more powerful, latter is cheaper and has an easy upgrade path to Phenom. |
| 02:25 | < Shoukanjuu> | And he has returned. |
| 02:26 | < Shoukanjuu> | Surely, we are not long for this world. |
| 02:37 | < Shoukanjuu> | I can't think of anything else to describe toxicfrog with that makes him sound like t he end of all things. |
| 02:54 | | * Kazriko decided to stick with his x2 and is buying a new mobo for it since nvidia chipsets suck |
| 02:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | I haven't had any problems with nvidia-chipsetted motherboards, actually. |
| 02:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which is more than I can say for their video cards. |
| 02:59 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, Spiff is an old nForce-2 and it has served me well for many years. |
| 03:00 | <@Kazriko> | every one i've had, had PCI bus issues |
| 03:01 | <@Kazriko> | Locking up if you use both a pci tv card and network card, or sound and network, etc |
| 03:01 | <@McMartin> | That said, TF's experience with video cards is exactly the opposite of everyone else I've ever met. |
| 03:01 | <@Kazriko> | and heavy corruption of data with tv cards if you use more than one |
| 03:02 | <@Kazriko> | My Mythtv box still only has one tv card because of that |
| 03:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | in fairness, none of the nV boards I've used have had more than one expansion board, the soundcard |
| 03:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | The capture card and whatnot go in other machines |
| 03:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | However, there's still lots of stuff on the PCI bus, so I'm honestly baffled why it would work with one expansion card but not two |
| 03:03 | <@Kazriko> | Anyway, getting an amd 790 board this time |
| 03:03 | <@Kazriko> | it still crashes with just one... |
| 03:03 | <@Kazriko> | but not nearly as often |
| 03:10 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-2037.A163.cust.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Z?] |
| 03:11 | <@Kazriko> | I've pretty much had problems with every video card i've used since Matrox dropped out of the performance race. Nvidia and ATI both suck in one way or another |
| 03:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | I've had no problems at all with ATI on windows, apart from lack of proper pillarboxing support. |
| 03:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | Whereas nV has been spiders as far as the eye can see. |
| 03:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | On linux, they're both spidery. |
| 03:12 | <@Kazriko> | I prefer ati on windows, because of the better dualhead support |
| 03:12 | <@Kazriko> | Nvidia has better dualhead in linux though |
| 03:12 | <@Kazriko> | nv on windows tends to break games when dualhead is enabled |
| 03:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | My experience with nV on linux has been that it has better dualhead support *if* you're willing to spend an hour up to your armpits in xorg.conf |
| 03:13 | <@Kazriko> | pretty much.. |
| 03:13 | <@Kazriko> | I've done that about 3 times... |
| 03:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | If you aren't, it's just barely worse than ATI's, which is terrible |
| 03:14 | <@Kazriko> | but ATI's is atrocious... |
| 03:14 | <@Kazriko> | The cursor is corrupt on the second screen, for instance |
| 03:15 | <@Kazriko> | when I was using ati on the linux box, i gave my other screen entirely over to the windows box |
| 03:16 | <@Kazriko> | i might try again with the 3850. maybe... |
| 03:16 | <@Kazriko> | if it fails in the same way i'll go back to the 8600 |
| 03:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes, that's my point. |
| 03:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | ATI has a graphical configurator that gives you terrible dualhead, which can't really be fixed with xorg.conf. |
| 03:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | nV gives you decent dualhead if you edit xorg.conf, but if you are foolish enough to use the provided configuration tool it destroys X completely. |
| 03:17 | <@Kazriko> | heh |
| 03:18 | <@Kazriko> | I only use linux dualhead in separate screen mode myself |
| 03:18 | <@Kazriko> | So it acts like two computer terminals |
| 03:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | Seperate X servers? |
| 03:19 | <@Kazriko> | yeah |
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| 06:22 | | Finerty is now known as Vornicus |
| 07:24 | | ErikMesoy|sleep is now known as ErikMesoy |
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| 08:32 | | ErikMesoy [~ejm@Nightstar-878.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. The world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children.] |
| 09:05 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
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| 09:23 | < ErikMesoy> | ToxicFrog: I'm getting "C:\TotAnn\Total Annihilation.rar: CRC failed in TOTALA\totala1.hpi. The file is corrupt" when trying to unpack TA.rar from your torrent. |
| 09:24 | < ErikMesoy> | Someone give me voice and I'll post a picture of the .rar's listed contents with size and whatnot, if that helps. |
| 09:26 | | mode/#code [+ooooov Doctor_Nick ErikMesoy Raif Shoukanjuu Vornicus DiceBot] by Vornicus |
| 09:27 | <@ErikMesoy> | http://s3.tinypic.com/5aq1qv.jpg |
| 09:29 | <@ErikMesoy> | ("Mappe" = folder, "Programutvidelse" = program extension, "Konfigurasjonsinnsti..." = configuration settings file, and the others should be roughly cognate to English.) |
| 09:38 | <@Doctor_Nick> | ugh |
| 09:38 | <@Doctor_Nick> | i need to convince some guy that his paranoia about commerical use of his product is unwarranted |
| 09:39 | <@Doctor_Nick> | http://unknowngenius.com/blog/wordpress/spam-karma/ |
| 09:39 | <@Doctor_Nick> | does anyone have any ideas on how i might convince him to release this under an OSI license |
| 09:40 | <@McMartin> | Unwarranted isn't the word you want. |
| 09:40 | <@McMartin> | It's "wrong" |
| 09:40 | <@McMartin> | It's quite warranted, especially if he considers, for instance, being shipped on RHEL discs to be "commercial use". |
| 09:41 | <@Doctor_Nick> | his concern is that the end-user gets screwed if his product is used commercially |
| 09:41 | <@Doctor_Nick> | i'm saying that's extremely unlikely |
| 09:46 | <@Doctor_Nick> | and since he refused to license it for non-commercial usage, Wordpress can't include Spam Karma by default, and most blog hosting companies are using akismet, which is proprietary software |
| 09:46 | <@Doctor_Nick> | so now everyone is getting screwed |
| 09:51 | <@McMartin> | Under OSI the end-user only gets screwed if it goes commercial and he stops supporting it |
| 09:52 | <@McMartin> | If he wants to insist that WordPress keep it used unchanged then he should go GPL which will require them to mirror it if he doesn't keep the source somewhere reasonably public |
| 09:53 | <@Doctor_Nick> | yeah |
| 09:54 | <@McMartin> | If he's relying on *spammers* not getting ahold of his source, then he's relying on security through obscurity, which may or may not be valid. |
| 09:54 | <@Doctor_Nick> | no |
| 09:54 | <@Doctor_Nick> | its open source |
| 09:54 | <@Doctor_Nick> | well |
| 09:54 | <@Doctor_Nick> | shared source |
| 09:54 | <@McMartin> | The source is freely available, you mean. |
| 09:54 | <@Doctor_Nick> | yes. |
| 09:57 | <@Doctor_Nick> | I'm seeing too much of this paranoia about commercial use, and it's short-sighted and harmful |
| 09:57 | | Vornicus is now known as Vornicus-Latens |
| 09:57 | <@McMartin> | It's valid for stuff you'd otherwise CC. |
| 09:58 | <@McMartin> | Code is a special case. |
| 09:58 | <@McMartin> | It is entirely valid for Johnathan Coulton to demand a cut if you commercially use his songs while freely letting people make YouTube music videos out of them, for instance. |
| 09:58 | <@Doctor_Nick> | yes |
| 09:59 | <@Doctor_Nick> | but if you wanted to use the song in a free software game, you couldn't |
| 09:59 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | GPL is approximately equivalent to CC, ime, except that GPL understands that code has a source that you can't even begin to approximate from the finished product. |
| 10:00 | <@McMartin> | GPL is approximately equivalent to CC-BY-SA. |
| 10:00 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | yeah, that one |
| 10:00 | <@Doctor_Nick> | yes |
| 10:00 | <@McMartin> | It's the -NC clause that's under discussion here. |
| 10:00 | <@McMartin> | Doctor_Nick: And you *can* mix GPL engines with NC content. |
| 10:00 | <@McMartin> | They just have to be segregated into separate packages. |
| 10:01 | <@McMartin> | Most former-commercial games that have OSS engines fall into that category. |
| 10:01 | <@Doctor_Nick> | they can't be distributed with free software only distributions |
| 10:01 | <@McMartin> | To which I basically say "Boo fucking hoo." Debian can handle it, there's no reason anyone else can't. |
| 10:02 | <@Doctor_Nick> | of course they can "handle" it, but all that's happening is that you're limiting your exposure by doing so |
| 10:02 | <@McMartin> | Sometimes exposure alone is not the goal. |
| 10:03 | <@McMartin> | And you aren't limiting it much, because Debian is the *most* fanatic about this stuff and even they don't meaningfully restrict access to it. |
| 10:03 | <@Doctor_Nick> | Ubuntu is pretty fanatical about it too, they just allow non-free drivers |
| 10:03 | <@Doctor_Nick> | but the ubuntu free software guidelines duplicate the DFSG, with the non-free driver exception |
| 10:04 | <@McMartin> | And both of them have one-click installs for UQM, which has precisely this GPL/CC-NC split. |
| 10:04 | <@McMartin> | The only place where this could possibly have been a problem is demodiscs in magazines, which are arguably commercial. |
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| 10:05 | <@McMartin> | But when you put 100MB of somebody's material as part of your disc, you tell them first, and so they secured individual permission for this. |
| 10:05 | <@McMartin> | Meanwhile, if EA wanted to sell it as downloadable content on PSN, that would be lolno. |
| 10:05 | <@Doctor_Nick> | ok, fine |
| 10:05 | <@Doctor_Nick> | so I get permission from the folks to put it on this disk |
| 10:05 | <@McMartin> | I'm telling you, this works. |
| 10:06 | <@Doctor_Nick> | but, if someone wants to make a copy of that disk and give it to friends, legally, they would have to get permission from those folks too |
| 10:06 | <@McMartin> | No they wouldn't. |
| 10:06 | <@McMartin> | They have the same NC license everyone else does, |
| 10:06 | <@McMartin> | What they'd need permission to do is sell it to their friends. |
| 10:07 | <@McMartin> | Anyone who ends up with a copy of any OSI or CC property gets a license directly from the creators. No sublicensing occurs. |
| 10:07 | <@Doctor_Nick> | and, like I said, what if some magazine wants to distribute this disc with a magazine |
| 10:07 | <@McMartin> | Then yeah, for NC, they have to ask. But since they do this anyway for more restrictive forms of freeware and shareware, they have whole departments for doing this and it fits into the machinery without a problem. |
| 10:07 | <@Doctor_Nick> | you would have to get permission from every single nc licensed thing on there |
| 10:08 | <@Doctor_Nick> | and most wouldnt bother with the trouble |
| 10:08 | | * ErikMesoy pokes ToxicFrog. |
| 10:08 | <@McMartin> | Having had to forward enough such requests to the original copyright holders for UQM to get a blanket exemption for demo discs, I can state with considerable confidence that this is not the case. |
| 10:08 | <@McMartin> | You're speaking hypothetically about a question of fact that, ANAICT, spins the other way. |
| 10:09 | <@McMartin> | There's also a procedural dodge, which is effectively what Debian and Ubuntu do. |
| 10:09 | <@McMartin> | "Here's the GPLed code and a script that goes and downloads the NC-only content from a public server." |
| 10:10 | <@McMartin> | "It's not being distributed commercially! Anyone can get it from there!" |
| 10:11 | <@Doctor_Nick> | if you ignore these kinds of details, it can come back to bite you in the ass |
| 10:11 | <@McMartin> | This is really only sensible if your main concern is corporate bootleggers. |
| 10:11 | <@McMartin> | And this is a legitimate concern. |
| 10:11 | <@McMartin> | WotC's epic fail with D&D3E was that they didn't actually want people publishing paperback versions of the SRD. |
| 10:12 | <@McMartin> | While that is, in OSS terms, the first thing you would do with an OSS-licensed piece of material is publish verbatim versions yourself. |
| 10:13 | <@McMartin> | But this is all an aside, stemming from the fact that games end up falling on the "this is a creative work" side of the divide with music and books, in the end. |
| 10:13 | <@Doctor_Nick> | yes |
| 10:13 | <@Doctor_Nick> | but the content of the games is creative work, the game engine is not |
| 10:14 | <@McMartin> | Demodisc makers treat their discs the way Reader's Digest treats their issues, so going NC-only on your content won't slow anyone down, *especially* if it was commercial or proprietary freeware in the first place. |
| 10:14 | <@McMartin> | The engine is still creative work. |
| 10:14 | <@McMartin> | However, there's additional value to be gotten in making it modifiable and propagatable as an uncontrollable entity in its own right, which is essentially never true for music or text. |
| 10:15 | <@Doctor_Nick> | remixes? poetry jams? |
| 10:15 | <@McMartin> | "You can't sell remixes of my song without negotiating with me first" is SOP. |
| 10:16 | <@McMartin> | Poetry jams aren't commercial. |
| 10:16 | <@McMartin> | Playing for tips also isn't commercial - you can't stop someone covering your songs while playing for tips even if you reserve all rights. |
| 10:17 | <@McMartin> | If there's a cover charge, though, ASCAP and BMI will nail your ass to the wall. |
| 10:21 | <@McMartin> | Essentially, for dealing with this guy, the question is whether the problem is that end-users get screwed, or that *he* does. |
| 10:21 | <@McMartin> | In the latter case, reasoning with him from the greater good standpoint is unlikely to be effective. |
| 10:22 | <@Doctor_Nick> | well, i've found out that the reason he stopped development was because it was supplanted by a free software license alternative, WP-SpamFree |
| 10:22 | <@Doctor_Nick> | so the whole thing is moot :B |
| 10:22 | <@Doctor_Nick> | licensed |
| 10:23 | <@Doctor_Nick> | http://freedomdefined.org/Licenses/NC this has many good arguments against NC licensing |
| 10:24 | <@McMartin> | I've heard most of them before. |
| 10:24 | <@McMartin> | If you think I'm reflexively in favor of it, you haven't been paying attention to me at all for the past hour. |
| 10:24 | <@McMartin> | There are plenty of excuses for it. |
| 10:25 | <@McMartin> | And if you're actually a series/continuity developer, there are very strong reasons for keeping core aspects locked down further. |
| 10:26 | <@McMartin> | "But your competitors won't be able to do as much with it" is not an argument against this. =P |
| 10:27 | <@Doctor_Nick> | i agree that there are many excuses for nc licensing |
| 10:28 | <@Doctor_Nick> | and it definitely warrants further analysis |
| 10:28 | <@Doctor_Nick> | but my feeling is that most of those aren't valid |
| 10:29 | <@McMartin> | I find that the rule of thumb is that code should not have NC clauses and pretty much everything else should. |
| 10:31 | <@McMartin> | When you allow open licensing of the content *at all*, which was ANAICT WotC's big mistake. They wanted to let anyone publish supplements and made it legal for people to publish the text of their own books without paying royalties |
| 10:32 | <@Doctor_Nick> | is that why wotc went to 3.5 |
| 10:33 | <@McMartin> | No. It's why 4e went to GSL and tries to discourage people from continuing to support OGL lines. |
| 10:33 | <@McMartin> | 3.5 was AIUI mostly to fix the heinously broken bits of 3e. |
| 10:34 | <@ErikMesoy> | AIUI? |
| 10:34 | <@McMartin> | As I Understand It |
| 10:35 | <@Doctor_Nick> | tbqh idnawyaysr |
| 10:35 | <@McMartin> | I haven't played D&D since Spelljammer was discontinued. |
| 10:38 | <@Doctor_Nick> | Dungeons & Dragons publisher Wizards of the Coast shocked the role-playing game industry today with the revelation that anyone wanting to publish material for the new Fourth Edition of D&D, expected out in June of this year, must forgo open licensing entirely as part of their new Game System License. |
| 10:39 | <@Doctor_Nick> | is that true? |
| 10:39 | <@Doctor_Nick> | http://mxyzplk.wordpress.com/2008/04/19/wizards-of-the-coast-declares-war-on-ope n-gaming/ |
| 10:40 | <@Doctor_Nick> | this says that, to publish anything under the GSL, you cannot publish anything under the OGL |
| 10:40 | <@Doctor_Nick> | which is pretty heinous |
| 10:40 | <@McMartin> | anything in that line. |
| 10:40 | <@McMartin> | Not period. |
| 10:40 | <@Doctor_Nick> | what is meant by "line" |
| 10:40 | <@McMartin> | If, say, Evil Hat Productions writes a 4e adventure, they don't have to discontinue FATE. |
| 10:41 | <@McMartin> | "Line" is pretty well defined in the RPG industry. It's the big word at the top. |
| 10:41 | <@McMartin> | Eberron. |
| 10:41 | <@McMartin> | In Nomine. |
| 10:41 | <@McMartin> | Spirit of the Century. |
| 10:41 | <@McMartin> | These are lines. |
| 10:41 | <@McMartin> | I don't recall which third-party d20 worlds are actually any good. |
| 10:42 | <@McMartin> | But basically, they can't publish 3e and 4e material together. |
| 10:42 | <@Doctor_Nick> | so, if one wants to publish D&D 4e stuff, they can't publish d&d3e stuff |
| 10:42 | <@Doctor_Nick> | that's pretty shitty |
| 10:42 | <@McMartin> | Meh. |
| 10:42 | <@Doctor_Nick> | forced upgrades |
| 10:42 | <@McMartin> | It's still freer than the standard deal. |
| 10:43 | <@McMartin> | And they're trying to close a floodgate they opened too wide by accident. |
| 10:43 | <@Doctor_Nick> | its still shitty |
| 10:43 | <@McMartin> | And remember, publishing D&D supplements also means you're directly using their trademarks. |
| 10:43 | <@McMartin> | Everyone's still free to not write anything for 4e, just like they didn't write anything for 2e. |
| 10:44 | <@McMartin> | And remember, this is just what's allowed without asking permission. |
| 10:44 | <@McMartin> | Anyone who can negotiate the ability to run dual lines for themselves gets to. |
| 10:44 | <@McMartin> | The idea that permissions are never granted outside the confines of the basic license is peculiar to coding. |
| 10:45 | <@McMartin> | The idea that WotC is somehow mandated to give away its core profit centers is laughable. |
| 10:45 | <@McMartin> | And it's not like "forced upgrades" isn't the norm in RPGs anyway; you will not get permission to write material for obsolete versions of any system. |
| 10:47 | <@McMartin> | (And, again, it ends up being moot because 4e is sufficiently different from 3e that upgrades are not meaningful in the first place.) |
| 10:48 | <@Doctor_Nick> | i'd rather just avoid this whole chichanery entirely and use an open gaming system |
| 10:49 | <@McMartin> | You are blinded by ideology. |
| 10:49 | <@McMartin> | None of this affects players in the slightest. |
| 10:49 | <@ErikMesoy> | They all download the books on TPB anyway? :-p |
| 10:49 | <@McMartin> | Well, if you're me, actually, open gaming systems are bad. |
| 10:50 | <@McMartin> | Locked systems produce more variety - a monoculture in gaming is a horrendous disadvantage. |
| 10:50 | | * Kazriko scoffs at the concept of western rpg variety |
| 10:51 | | * McMartin bludgeons Kazriko with Don't Rest Your Head and Spirit of the Century |
| 10:51 | <@McMartin> | SotC actually has a subset under OGL and thus has SRDs online. |
| 10:51 | <@McMartin> | But yes, all differences between OGL and GSL and All Rights Reserved only come into effect if you're writing sourcebooks and aren't employed by the company that makes the game. |
| 10:52 | <@McMartin> | Everything players do falls under fair use or explicit license grants. |
| 10:52 | <@Kazriko> | nearly all of the computer rpgs western-made seem to boil down to typical elf/dwarf/gnome/orc/troll/etc |
| 10:52 | <@McMartin> | Kazriko: http://www.faterpg.com/dl/sotc-srd.html |
| 10:52 | <@McMartin> | Kazriko: You have *not* been paying attention. |
| 10:52 | <@Kazriko> | other than fallout |
| 10:52 | <@McMartin> | Or you think "RPG" in this discussion means CRPG, in which case you *still* haven't been paying attention and should go see what BioWare has been up to the past decade or so. |
| 10:53 | <@Kazriko> | Mass effect, or something else? |
| 10:53 | <@McMartin> | Knights of the Old Republic springs immediately to mind. |
| 10:53 | <@Kazriko> | I played nwn... elf/orc/etc |
| 10:53 | <@McMartin> | Yes, NWN is a Dungeons & Dragons game. |
| 10:54 | <@Kazriko> | ah. played that and it was just playing off yet another already overtread style |
| 10:54 | <@Kazriko> | Starwars... |
| 10:54 | <@McMartin> | Um |
| 10:54 | <@McMartin> | If your claim is that JRPGs are not self-derivative I have no choice but to laugh until I asphyxiate |
| 10:55 | <@Kazriko> | and deep down starwars kotor had a very similar system to NWN |
| 10:55 | <@Kazriko> | in advancement. |
| 10:55 | <@McMartin> | Yes. |
| 10:55 | <@McMartin> | Because it, too, was Dungeons and Dragons. |
| 10:55 | <@McMartin> | Well. |
| 10:56 | <@McMartin> | Star Wars d20. |
| 10:56 | <@Doctor_Nick> | http://seankreynolds.livejournal.com/33265.html |
| 10:56 | <@McMartin> | Astonishingly, when you implement different genres in the same system, the rules are still the same. |
| 10:56 | <@Doctor_Nick> | this is really heinous |
| 10:56 | <@McMartin> | I'll also add Mass Effect, Psychonauts, and Beyond Good & Evil to the list of Western RPG games that are not Tolkien-derived. |
| 10:56 | <@Kazriko> | There's many that do the same thing, but they tend to mix nearly every aspect up in jrpgs in the main serieses |
| 10:57 | <@Kazriko> | psychonauts was a platform adventure game... |
| 10:57 | <@Kazriko> | and those are creative in the west |
| 10:57 | <@Kazriko> | look at ratchet and clank and spyro |
| 10:57 | <@McMartin> | Psychonauts had RPG elements in it. |
| 10:57 | <@Kazriko> | far less than R&C |
| 10:57 | <@McMartin> | R&C and Spyro were significantly less advancement oriented unless you count buying powerups. |
| 10:57 | <@Kazriko> | or even Castlevania SOTN |
| 10:58 | <@McMartin> | Not Western. |
| 10:58 | <@McMartin> | Psychonauts was more than SotN imo because leveling in Psychonauts actually gives you new abilities. |
| 10:58 | <@Kazriko> | You haven't been paying attention to R&C then |
| 10:58 | <@McMartin> | In SotN it just makes the numbers go up |
| 10:58 | <@Kazriko> | heh |
| 10:58 | <@McMartin> | It's true, I haven't. It's on the stack under the Sly Cooper games and Everything Else. |
| 10:59 | <@Kazriko> | R&C from the second on were very heavily advancement driven |
| 10:59 | <@McMartin> | k |
| 10:59 | <@Kazriko> | nearly every weapon changed when leveled up |
| 10:59 | <@McMartin> | Well, I thought you leveled weapons by buying upgrades |
| 10:59 | <@McMartin> | If you go by that, Gradius is an RPG =P |
| 11:00 | <@Kazriko> | that too, but less so than in the first |
| 11:00 | <@McMartin> | Anyway. |
| 11:00 | <@McMartin> | The West doesn't obsess over the RPG genre because it doesn't sell as well here because it's essentially an interactive spreadsheet... |
| 11:00 | <@McMartin> | ... but it's still done and it covers a lot of the traditional genres. |
| 11:01 | <@Doctor_Nick> | overall, it seems like the GSL is really bad for rpging |
| 11:01 | <@McMartin> | Doctor_Nick: ... how. |
| 11:01 | <@Kazriko> | the main point is that games like SaGa, FF, Suikoden, etc very heavily mix up their elements |
| 11:01 | <@Kazriko> | most US ones stick to the same D20 system |
| 11:01 | <@McMartin> | Kazriko: If I were in a bad mood, I'd say they're all "Stick Kurosawa, Evangelion, and Ghost in the Shell in a blender" |
| 11:01 | <@McMartin> | Bioware licensed d20. |
| 11:02 | <@McMartin> | SSI licensed AD&D before that. |
| 11:02 | <@Doctor_Nick> | many game publishers have said that the gsl is incredibly restrictive to the point that they wouldn't be able to support 4e |
| 11:02 | <@McMartin> | Fallout licensed GURPS. |
| 11:02 | <@McMartin> | Ultima had its own set of systems, and was generally inferior to the others because, well, companies that live or die by good mechanics tend to make good mechanics. |
| 11:02 | <@Kazriko> | So it's the same spreadsheet everytime |
| 11:03 | <@McMartin> | To wildly overgeneralize, Western RPGs prefer sandboxes to play a spreadsheet to get a cutscene. |
| 11:03 | <@Kazriko> | And sandbox games bore the snot out of me |
| 11:03 | <@McMartin> | Doctor_Nick: And so they will go out of business? I propose that they will instead write material for their own systems or other licensors instead. |
| 11:04 | <@McMartin> | Kazriko: That's purely a matter of taste, if so. |
| 11:04 | <@McMartin> | I've found every JRPG I've played to be a grim exercise of deadly willpower with the inexplicable exception of Paper Mario. |
| 11:04 | <@Doctor_Nick> | McMartin: which is what's going to happen |
| 11:04 | <@McMartin> | Doctor_Nick: So how is this bad? |
| 11:04 | <@Doctor_Nick> | so much less variety for 4e |
| 11:04 | <@McMartin> | It's not even "WotC gets less money" |
| 11:04 | <@McMartin> | So.. play something else too? |
| 11:05 | <@Kazriko> | If they mixed the mechanics up more it might be worth the aimlessness and pointless exercises |
| 11:05 | <@Doctor_Nick> | I don't even play table-top rpgs |
| 11:05 | <@McMartin> | Uh, I've heard many things about NWN and Planescape: Torment and Fallout, but "aimlessness" does not spring to mind. |
| 11:05 | <@Kazriko> | fallout is very aimless in places |
| 11:05 | <@McMartin> | Doctor_Nick: Take it from someone who does, then. Trading up systems across campaigns is Not An Issue. |
| 11:06 | <@Doctor_Nick> | well, good |
| 11:06 | <@Kazriko> | especially once you find the purifier then are dumped back into the wasteland with no more overall goal |
| 11:06 | <@McMartin> | Kaz: Well, you won. |
| 11:07 | <@McMartin> | This isn't an East/West split, it's an individual designer split whether to let the player loose after winning. |
| 11:07 | <@McMartin> | What I'm getting from you is that you like linear RPGs with different controlling formulae across games. |
| 11:07 | <@Doctor_Nick> | yeah |
| 11:07 | <@Kazriko> | But the jp games generally give you more goals after you finish the game |
| 11:08 | <@McMartin> | ... no they don't. That's rare everywhere. |
| 11:08 | <@Kazriko> | Not entirely linear, but goal oriented |
| 11:08 | <@McMartin> | You can get examples everywhere, but the vast majority of games everywhere simply end the game when the game is over. |
| 11:08 | <@Kazriko> | it's extremely common |
| 11:08 | <@Kazriko> | nearly all have an EX mode these dayo |
| 11:08 | <@Kazriko> | days |
| 11:09 | <@McMartin> | Ehn. |
| 11:09 | <@Kazriko> | DQ7 for example opens up several challenge worlds |
| 11:09 | <@McMartin> | That's no different from Super Mario Galaxy or, indeed, Assassin's Creed. |
| 11:09 | <@McMartin> | It's just that you had your final boss fight early. |
| 11:09 | <@Kazriko> | DQ8 has a ton of recipes and dungeons that open up once you beat it once |
| 11:10 | <@McMartin> | I repeat my earlier comment~ |
| 11:10 | <@Kazriko> | the US games are starting to follow suit, or at least the insomniac ones |
| 11:10 | <@McMartin> | The only difference between this and having a shitload of sidequests in the first place is that you're explicitly marking some as being of lower priority than actually beating the game. |
| 11:11 | <@McMartin> | And yes, I see this more recently everywhere. |
| 11:11 | <@McMartin> | I don't think it's East/West. I think it's a currently popular trend. |
| 11:11 | <@McMartin> | The earliest Western example I can think of is Myst, where it was roundly derided. |
| 11:11 | <@McMartin> | "No game design document should ever end with 'And then the player gets sick of it and quits'." |
| 11:12 | <@Kazriko> | I'd play more bioware stuff, but they're sucking up to MS too much |
| 11:13 | <@Kazriko> | I need to buy a console to play them or resign myself to a lifetime of their crappy drm junk degrading my computer for all eternity |
| 11:13 | <@McMartin> | I'd suggest Telltale, myself. |
| 11:14 | <@McMartin> | To date, North America is the only region that's Really Gotten graphic adventures, and it's not even the place where they're popular or profitable =/ |
| 11:14 | <@Kazriko> | graphic adventures, such as the broken sword games and all the sierra stuff? |
| 11:15 | <@Doctor_Nick> | adventure games |
| 11:15 | <@Doctor_Nick> | like monkey island |
| 11:15 | <@Kazriko> | TBH, many JP rpgs remind me of those with extra battles tossed in and easier puzzles |
| 11:15 | <@Doctor_Nick> | remember that game |
| 11:15 | <@Doctor_Nick> | that was a good game |
| 11:15 | <@Doctor_Nick> | good times |
| 11:15 | <@Doctor_Nick> | good tiiiiiimes |
| 11:15 | <@McMartin> | Sierra largely did it wrong, but they pioneered it. |
| 11:16 | <@Kazriko> | I still haven't managed to play that one |
| 11:16 | <@McMartin> | LucasArts did it well for awhile, then Grim Fandango was a huge critical success and nearly drove them bankrupt. |
| 11:16 | <@Kazriko> | i still need to try sam and max |
| 11:16 | <@McMartin> | The modern episodic ones are by Telltale. |
| 11:16 | <@McMartin> | They're the best games in the genre since Grim Fandago, which was 10 years ago. |
| 11:17 | <@McMartin> | If you can find the LucasArts Archives volumes... 1 and 3, I think it is... those have a bunch of games that play in the (open-source) ScummVM |
| 11:17 | <@Kazriko> | ok, will try those. they work on linux yet, or PS3/psp/ps2/gc/ds? |
| 11:17 | | * McMartin points up |
| 11:17 | <@McMartin> | Proprietary data, OSS engine. |
| 11:17 | <@McMartin> | ScummVM is in nearly all distros. |
| 11:17 | <@Kazriko> | the sam and max ones? |
| 11:18 | <@McMartin> | Oh. No, only the original Sam and Max Hit the Road. |
| 11:18 | <@Kazriko> | i know about the scummVM games |
| 11:18 | <@McMartin> | The episodic ones have a free episode available via Steam, which may work in Wine or whatever WineX is called these days |
| 11:18 | <@Kazriko> | still have never managed to beat willy beamish either |
| 11:18 | <@Kazriko> | only played a bit in |
| 11:18 | | * McMartin considers Full Throttle the best of the lot. |
| 11:19 | <@McMartin> | Willy Beamish is from the early days when people were still treating it like illustrated IF. |
| 11:19 | <@McMartin> | Which doesn't really work. |
| 11:20 | <@McMartin> | Doctor_Nick: My opinion on GSL lines up with this comment from the post you linked: "Frankly, I think this will hurt them in the long run. On the other hand, here's hoping we'll see some big things from "non-Wizards, non-d20" companies again for a change. The gaming community could use it, IMO." |
| 11:21 | <@Doctor_Nick> | yeah |
| 11:21 | | * ErikMesoy does the hourly poke of ToxicFrog. |
| 11:21 | <@Doctor_Nick> | if the gaming community lights a fire under wotc's ass, maybe they'll see the error of their ways |
| 11:21 | <@McMartin> | ... you still don't get it. |
| 11:21 | <@McMartin> | You're treating 3e as if it were Linux. |
| 11:22 | <@McMartin> | It's not. It's like Microsoft's SDK for XNA. |
| 11:22 | <@McMartin> | "If everyone develops to our rules, everyone will have to purchase our core books and then all our competitors will die out or work for us." |
| 11:22 | <@McMartin> | That was the business case. |
| 11:22 | <@McMartin> | What they actually did was let people publish copies of their core books without royalties. |
| 11:23 | <@McMartin> | Which is fucking idiotic if you're a publisher. |
| 11:23 | <@Doctor_Nick> | I'm saying that, if their business is actively hurt by it when companies move to non-d20 stuff, they'll see that maybe it wasn't a good idea to move to a restrictive license |
| 11:23 | <@McMartin> | I'm not convinced it actually will, and if it does, I'm not convinced it will hurt them any worse than the wrangling over trademarks. |
| 11:24 | <@Kazriko> | The only spacequest I haven't finished is 5... |
| 11:24 | | * McMartin wasn't aware of the d20STL before this, but it sorts itself out similarly. |
| 11:25 | <@McMartin> | Kazriko: Not worth it. |
| 11:25 | <@McMartin> | Blind mazes: They're bad in text, they're still bad in graphics. |
| 11:25 | <@McMartin> | Especially when they kill you randomly! |
| 11:25 | <@Kazriko> | where was that in the game? |
| 11:25 | <@McMartin> | Very near the end. |
| 11:25 | <@Kazriko> | ahhh |
| 11:25 | <@McMartin> | You spend a very long time crawling through ventilation shafts. |
| 11:26 | <@McMartin> | You can leave them into elevator shafts which will get you crushed/splatted. |
| 11:26 | <@Kazriko> | i only just killed the terminator bot |
| 11:26 | <@McMartin> | Yeah. Ehn. |
| 11:26 | <@McMartin> | 3 was the height of the series. |
| 11:26 | <@McMartin> | Then the designers began a drunken tailspin into obscurity |
| 11:26 | <@Kazriko> | 3 was a lot of fun |
| 11:26 | <@McMartin> | Just like they promised at the end of 3! |
| 11:26 | <@Kazriko> | 6 was decent iirc |
| 11:27 | <@Doctor_Nick> | god |
| 11:27 | <@McMartin> | 6 broke the shit out of the continuity in 4 and 5. |
| 11:27 | <@Doctor_Nick> | i want to play space quest 3 again |
| 11:27 | <@Doctor_Nick> | goddammit |
| 11:27 | <@Doctor_Nick> | i have to do work :( |
| 11:27 | <@Kazriko> | true |
| 11:27 | <@McMartin> | But yeah, it was better-designed than 5. |
| 11:27 | <@Kazriko> | but from a game standpoint, it was fun :) |
| 11:27 | <@McMartin> | My favorite Sierra games were the ones by the Coles. |
| 11:27 | <@Kazriko> | 4 was very interesting in the storyline |
| 11:27 | <@McMartin> | Conquest of (whatever) and the QfG games. |
| 11:28 | <@Kazriko> | never played qfg, always looked interesting |
| 11:28 | <@McMartin> | They break every rule of adventure games, and yet they still largely work |
| 11:28 | <@McMartin> | ... from a game design standpoint. |
| 11:28 | <@McMartin> | 3 through 5 are nearly unplayably buggy. |
| 11:28 | | * Kazriko is working on Grandia, Secret agent clank, and disgaea now. |
| 11:29 | | * McMartin is working on the Telltale games and Aquaria. |
| 11:29 | <@Kazriko> | The Grandia series has the best combat system i've seen in an rpg |
| 11:31 | <@Kazriko> | Such a thin balance between stomping the enemy and having your backside handed to you, based on how well you setup your interruptions and such |
| 11:32 | <@McMartin> | "interruptions"? |
| 11:33 | <@McMartin> | My standard for this stuff is FFT and X-COM. |
| 11:33 | <@Kazriko> | if you do a normal attack, it delays them, a critical delays them more, but if they're in the action window a critical cancels their attack |
| 11:34 | <@McMartin> | Is this a question of RL timing or of sorting stuff out on a PERT chart? |
| 11:34 | <@Kazriko> | but they can do the same to you |
| 11:34 | <@McMartin> | I do think one of the reasons Paper Mario didn't trigger my Why The Hell Am I Doing This button is that you're dealing more with immunities than damage ratios. |
| 11:34 | <@Kazriko> | it pauses when you select your attack. |
| 11:35 | <@McMartin> | Not quite what I was asking |
| 11:35 | <@Kazriko> | JRPGs usually have lots of immunities and special defense/attack relationships... |
| 11:35 | <@Kazriko> | Ah, lesse.. |
| 11:35 | <@McMartin> | I mean, are we looking at something like Perfect Guard in reverse (a la Paper Mario, the Penny Arcade RPGs, the critical strikes in FF8) but based on what the enemy is doing, or does this involve sorting speeds out so you attack then defend. |
| 11:36 | <@McMartin> | And yet, with all these enormously complex formulae, it all boils down to DPS vs. HPS. |
| 11:36 | <@Kazriko> | each attack has a different length of time in the attack window, then some have travel time while the character moves |
| 11:36 | <@McMartin> | While in PMHP is extremely low and HPS is effectively zero unless you give up attacking entirely, so taking four points of damage is Serious Panic Time. |
| 11:36 | <@Kazriko> | and the characters go through the wait time at different rates |
| 11:37 | <@McMartin> | That sounds like the kind of thing I might have more fun with if it weren't pretending to be combat. |
| 11:37 | <@McMartin> | Tetris with decaying bricks or something. |
| 11:38 | <@Kazriko> | you almost have to try it to really get a feel for it |
| 11:38 | <@McMartin> | Your description sounds like it's like tring to cram Street Fighter into a diceless tabletop RPG. |
| 11:39 | <@McMartin> | Which, um, isn't the strongest selling point, I must admit |
| 11:40 | <@Kazriko> | lesse... |
| 11:40 | <@McMartin> | If you've got a YouTube or something... |
| 11:40 | <@Kazriko> | http://www.penny-arcade.com/2006/02/17/ |
| 11:41 | <@Kazriko> | the 2/22 one has more |
| 11:41 | <@Kazriko> | lesse, youtube... |
| 11:43 | <@Kazriko> | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtcoVPPzjx4 not the best example, too early for the fun battles |
| 11:43 | <@McMartin> | "The stories in most of the JRPGs we get are fucking garbage. Is this a controversial statement? Only the most dominated nihongophile recoils, straining on his Eastern leash. These "stories" are challenges in an of themselves: like a hulking boss creature, they are trials against which the human mind must strive. Exhausting existential retreads that course through the meat of the brain like poison." |
| 11:44 | <@Kazriko> | heh. they're not jrpg fans |
| 11:44 | <@Kazriko> | personally, i enjoy them mostly as escapism myself, I wonder if he ever played Suikoden 3 though |
| 11:44 | <@McMartin> | Is that wheel in the upper left the timing thing? |
| 11:44 | <@Kazriko> | yeah |
| 11:45 | <@McMartin> | And can you select when to give commands? |
| 11:45 | <@McMartin> | (as in, it's not always paused because it's always someone's turn) |
| 11:45 | <@Kazriko> | you give commands when your character hits the action bar |
| 11:46 | <@McMartin> | ... So, how then do you control the timing of your attacks? |
| 11:46 | <@Kazriko> | by selecting attacks that will hit at different times, based on their speed to cast |
| 11:47 | <@Kazriko> | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVvx_gQwgFg&feature=related |
| 11:47 | <@McMartin> | There, I fear, goes all my interest in the system. |
| 11:48 | <@Kazriko> | still not the best example, but better |
| 11:48 | <@McMartin> | Unless there's also a one-phase "do nothing" maneuver. |
| 11:48 | <@McMartin> | Fencing is all about timing. |
| 11:48 | <@Kazriko> | that exists |
| 11:48 | <@Kazriko> | as well as a trust feather item that can advance the turns of other chars |
| 11:50 | <@Kazriko> | without the set times to give orders it would be far too easy to line your attacks up just right |
| 11:51 | <@Kazriko> | with this you have to make best use of your limited resources |
| 11:52 | <@McMartin> | I kinda predict that two hours in I'd be asking myself why I wasn't playing a fighting game instead, though, given my usual reactions to RPGs of any stripe. |
| 11:53 | <@Kazriko> | I do logic puzzles for fun though, so i'm probably not one to talk |
| 11:53 | <@Kazriko> | I have only had a very small set of fighting games that I have ever enjoyed... |
| 11:54 | <@Kazriko> | and of those only the Soul Calibur series still exists |
| 11:54 | <@McMartin> | Heh. Probably my favorite, since I'm not actually very good |
| 11:54 | <@McMartin> | And I also have a compulsion in any Street Fighter to solely play as Dan. |
| 11:55 | <@Kazriko> | Bushido blade 2 is my favorite |
| 11:55 | <@Kazriko> | followed by OMF2097 |
| 11:55 | <@Kazriko> | soul calibur is a tolerable substitute for an update of those two |
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| 11:56 | <@Kazriko> | Heh, I also play disgaea for the geopanel puzzles |
| 12:02 | <@Kazriko> | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWhqpsSlPbA |
| 12:03 | <@McMartin> | Disgaea is on my "look at for the metalepsis when you get the chance" list. |
| 12:04 | <@Kazriko> | heh, you probably wouldn't enjoy it. it's too spreadsheety |
| 12:05 | <@Kazriko> | strategy game, but heavy on level grinding |
| 12:05 | <@AnnoDomini> | Its major problem in my eyes is the classic Atlus XP-gaining system. |
| 12:05 | <@Kazriko> | Funny, it's not even really an atlus game |
| 12:06 | <@AnnoDomini> | Well, you still need to kill shit personally to gain XP. |
| 12:06 | <@Kazriko> | they just translated the first version |
| 12:06 | <@Kazriko> | not really |
| 12:06 | <@AnnoDomini> | Which means characters like medics don't gain XP. |
| 12:06 | <@Kazriko> | geopanel puzzles... |
| 12:06 | <@AnnoDomini> | Well, yes, I know, there's also bonus things. |
| 12:06 | <@AnnoDomini> | But that's very little. |
| 12:06 | <@Kazriko> | and you can put the medics behind and next to your attacking chars |
| 12:07 | <@Kazriko> | and they'll join in the combo |
| 12:07 | <@AnnoDomini> | And do 0 damage and get no XP anyway. |
| 12:08 | <@Kazriko> | In the item world, there's frequent 6000+ xp bonuses |
| 12:08 | <@Kazriko> | my clerics lag a bit, but they're still about median on my char list |
| 12:09 | <@AnnoDomini> | I don't like item world because there's no plot attached to it. And each is too frickin' long. |
| 12:09 | <@Kazriko> | lvl 22-28 when my mainlines are 30-40 |
| 12:09 | <@Kazriko> | heh |
| 12:10 | <@Kazriko> | most games have little plot to level grinding |
| 12:10 | <@Kazriko> | and there's actually some plot to the item world |
| 12:10 | <@Kazriko> | beating item world gods change the endings |
| 12:11 | <@AnnoDomini> | Baby Anno hates level grinding. |
| 12:12 | <@Kazriko> | nod |
| 12:12 | <@Kazriko> | Disgaea is about the only place i do it... because it's more old school than most games |
| 12:12 | <@AnnoDomini> | I don't mind when it's "do some easier quest first" but "run around location X for two weeks drawing aggro" just doesn't cut it for me. |
| 12:12 | <@Kazriko> | you almost have to level grind to beat the game |
| 12:20 | | * ErikMesoy does the hourly poke of ToxicFrog, hoping for some troubleshooting. |
| 12:27 | <@Kazriko> | because the main quest is linear, and the sidequests all have to be unlocked by getting absurdly powerful and influencing the council to open the gates |
| 12:29 | <@Kazriko> | Disgaea is a game that i couldn't possibly have two of in my rotation... it'd drive me nuts |
| 12:33 | <@Doctor_Nick> | ErikMesoy: people sometimes stop functioning for hours at a time |
| 12:33 | <@Doctor_Nick> | this is known as "sleep" |
| 12:33 | <@ErikMesoy> | I was told by very reliable sources that TF was always here. |
| 12:35 | | * Kazriko goes all nonfunctional. |
| 12:36 | <@Doctor_Nick> | very few people have evolved past the need for sleep |
| 12:37 | <@ErikMesoy> | Fine, I'll try again in five-six hours? |
| 12:37 | <@Doctor_Nick> | that might be best |
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| 13:08 | <@Kazriko> | Actually, I think GalCiv 2 and eve online are the only two sandbox games i'm still playing |
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| 13:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | If he'd waited just an hour and a half... |
| 14:02 | | Dlordz [~DLORDZ.NE@41.208.50.ns-12776] has joined #code |
| 14:03 | < Dlordz> | HEY ALL |
| 14:04 | | * AnnoDomini turns his black gaze upon Dlordz. |
| 14:04 | < Dlordz> | Oh lol |
| 14:04 | < Dlordz> | hi AnnoDomini |
| 14:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...good morning. |
| 14:06 | < Dlordz> | GM |
| 14:06 | < Dlordz> | hi ToxicFrog |
| 14:07 | < Dlordz> | hmm luker nick name |
| 14:09 | < Dlordz> | Damn its cold here in South africa |
| 14:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | Why are you PMing me? |
| 14:12 | < Dlordz> | i neva |
| 14:12 | < Dlordz> | lol |
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| 16:21 | <@gnolam> | Ye gods. What /was/ the TTL on that thing? |
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| 17:20 | | AnnoDomini [AnnoDomini@Nightstar-29141.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #Code |
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| 18:12 | < ErikMesoy> | ToxicFrog: You there? |
| 18:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | I am now. |
| 18:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | You know, you could have asked earlier and I would have answered when I woke up an hour later. |
| 18:41 | < ErikMesoy> | Bad luck, I guess. |
| 18:42 | < ErikMesoy> | So. "C:\TotAnn\Total Annihilation.rar: CRC failed in TOTALA\totala1.hpi. The file is corrupt" during unpacking. Any idea? |
| 18:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | Tell your torrent client to re-check it. |
| 18:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | And make sure that rarball is marked as fully downloaded afterwards. |
| 18:44 | < ErikMesoy> | Hmm. Right-clicking on the file in uTorrent, I see "Open", priority settings, and "Don't download". Is the re-checking in some menu? |
| 18:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | Right-click the whole torrent and tell it to re-check |
| 18:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | I don't think you can tell it to check individual files |
| 18:45 | < ErikMesoy> | "Force re-check" is greyed out. |
| 18:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | I have just verified that the copy I have is intact, and the nature of bittorrent is such that it verifies each chunk as it is transferred. |
| 18:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | Odd. Have you moved it somewhere after downloading it? |
| 18:47 | <@Doctor_Nick> | http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/08jun/uf011624.gif |
| 18:47 | < ErikMesoy> | No. However, I have plugged out the USB stick during rebooting the computer so that it doesn't try to boot from the torrentstick and get stuck. |
| 18:47 | <@Doctor_Nick> | the punch line is "gee, ya think!?" |
| 18:47 | < ErikMesoy> | Turn off computer, take out USB, boot computer, put in USB, continue torrent. |
| 18:50 | < ErikMesoy> | As long as uTorrent quit and restarted nicely, that shouldn't be a problem AFAIK. |
| 18:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | No, it shouldn't have been. |
| 18:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | But this means you have moved it; c:\TotAnn\ isn't going to be your USB stick. |
| 18:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | If I had to guess, I'd guess that re-check isn't available because the files aren't in the place uTorrent was downloading them to. |
| 18:53 | < ErikMesoy> | Ah. That was me copying the TA.rar file wholesale over to my main drive and unpacking it there. |
| 18:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | Try pointing utorrent at that dir instead? Or move the files back where it expects them to be a recheck. |
| 18:54 | < ErikMesoy> | I didn't move, I copied. Everything is still on the USB stick. |
| 18:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 18:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well, I can pretty much think of only three possibilities: |
| 18:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | - utorrent didn't sync it properly; the version on the USB stick is corrupt and must be repaired |
| 18:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | - something went wrong copying from the USB stick to the hdd |
| 18:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | - there is something wrong with your unrar software |
| 18:56 | < ErikMesoy> | Well, I can test two of those to some extend by trying to copy the files from the USB onto another computer and unzipping them there with another program. |
| 18:56 | <@Doctor_Nick> | computers |
| 18:57 | < ErikMesoy> | *extent |
| 18:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | You can test the first just by putting the USB stick back in and pointing utorrent at it |
| 18:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or, for that matter, by telling it that the directory on the hdd is the download directory |
| 19:00 | < ErikMesoy> | I've put the USB stick back in and uTorrent is continuing happily. |
| 19:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aright, so force re-check and then see how complete it says the files are. |
| 19:01 | < ErikMesoy> | Re-check is greyed out, as I said, this being on the USB stick where everything was originally being downloaded, which I haven't moved or edited, only copied. |
| 19:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Wait, it's greyed out even when it's currently downloading the torrent? |
| 19:02 | < ErikMesoy> | Yes. It shows "Downloading" under "status" and has up and down speeds. |
| 19:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...does it become available if you stop it? |
| 19:03 | <@Doctor_Nick> | there needs to be a campaign to lobby companies to open-source their abandonware |
| 19:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | Agreed |
| 19:03 | < ErikMesoy> | Thirded |
| 19:04 | <@Doctor_Nick> | somebody start it |
| 19:04 | <@Doctor_Nick> | tia |
| 19:04 | < ErikMesoy> | I think we need to pick a country to start it in, at least |
| 19:04 | < ErikMesoy> | "ten people on the internet" isn't much of a starting point for a campaign. |
| 19:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | Although it also needs to get around situations where the developer has the source, but not the rights - I've talked to a few companies about open-sourcing their defunct games and the response is almost always "we'd be cool with that, but $publisher would sue us into oblivion, because they're the ones who actually own it" |
| 19:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | And negotiations with the publisher have always ended, and usually started, with them saying "fuck off" |
| 19:05 | <@Doctor_Nick> | boo |
| 19:05 | < ErikMesoy> | We could start it in the US and start the campaign on resetting copyright back to what the Founding Fathers intended it to be - 14 years. |
| 19:05 | < ErikMesoy> | Which, incidentally, is also the optimum copyright term according to a paper I read. Lemme find it. |
| 19:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | *current* optimum copyright. It changes over time, generally downward. |
| 19:06 | < ErikMesoy> | Voice? |
| 19:06 | | mode/#code [+vv ErikMesoy NSGuest-7110] by ToxicFrog |
| 19:07 | | AnnoDomini is now known as Steve |
| 19:07 | <+ErikMesoy> | http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070712-research-optimal-copyright-term-is -14-years.html |
| 19:07 | <@Doctor_Nick> | copyright is fucked. |
| 19:07 | <@Doctor_Nick> | well |
| 19:07 | <@Doctor_Nick> | copyright law |
| 19:07 | <+ErikMesoy> | Yep. |
| 19:07 | <+ErikMesoy> | And patent law. |
| 19:07 | <+ErikMesoy> | Trademark law is decent, though. |
| 19:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | Frankly, I would like to see it mandated by law that developers have to keep the source, it has to be released after some period of time in which the game is neither licensed nor in print, and publishers can't fuck with this. |
| 19:08 | <+ErikMesoy> | (Also, DEATH to those who want to lump the above under "intellectual property".) |
| 19:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | (actually, scratch the "in print") |
| 19:09 | <+ErikMesoy> | ToxicFrog: There's a clause like that in California, where the developer/inventor of something can't sign over his rights over something he comes up with to his employer. (And if he does, it just doesn't apply.) |
| 19:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | Not quite the same; typically there's two *companies* involved |
| 19:10 | <+ErikMesoy> | I know, but it might be an interesting starting point. |
| 19:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | The publisher funds much of the development, and owns most of the result |
| 19:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | I'm hoping that as publishing becomes cheaper (Steam, Stardock, home-rolled net publishing, etc) we'll start to see a decline in that model |
| 19:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | But one of the contributing factors is that Game Development Is Expensive, which that won't fix. |
| 19:13 | <@Doctor_Nick> | ErikMesoy: where did you get Total annihilation |
| 19:13 | <+ErikMesoy> | From TF. |
| 19:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | I'm seeding it. |
| 19:13 | <+ErikMesoy> | Ask him for the torrent link. |
| 19:13 | <@Doctor_Nick> | oh |
| 19:13 | <+ErikMesoy> | I'm seeing 75% of it ATM. |
| 19:13 | <@Steve> | How is babby formed? |
| 19:13 | <+ErikMesoy> | *seeding |
| 19:13 | <@Doctor_Nick> | can i have the torrent link? :) |
| 19:13 | <@Doctor_Nick> | Steve |
| 19:13 | <@Doctor_Nick> | : HOW GIRL GET PRAEGNANT |
| 19:13 | <+ErikMesoy> | "Well, when a mommy and a daddy love one another very much..." |
| 19:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | http://www.mininova.org/tor/1534493 |
| 19:14 | <@Steve> | They need to do way instain mother; |
| 19:14 | <@Steve> | It was on the news this mroing |
| 19:15 | <@Doctor_Nick> | yes |
| 19:15 | <@Doctor_Nick> | we all saw that flash video |
| 19:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | Anyways, yes. I am infuriated by the amount of no-longer-maintained software we don't have the source for, and probably never will. |
| 19:17 | <@Steve> | A shadowrun is called for. |
| 19:17 | <@Doctor_Nick> | and the easiest way to prevent that is to just open up the source in the first place |
| 19:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah, but good luck with getting that to happen. |
| 19:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | A lot of companies are deeply paranoid about their competitors seeing the source. |
| 19:18 | <+ErikMesoy> | I'm up for the shadowrun. |
| 19:18 | <+ErikMesoy> | I probably have about as much skill at doing so as most of you. :p |
| 19:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | And most of the ones that aren't have some kind of mental block where they think open source == free |
| 19:18 | <@Steve> | We need a decker. |
| 19:19 | <+ErikMesoy> | I'm also a white male Christian US citizen, which means I can wriggle out of a hell of a lot of trouble by abusing my privileges. |
| 19:19 | <@Doctor_Nick> | ToxicFrog: that's a symptom of "not invented here" syndrome, that's deeper rooted |
| 19:19 | <@Doctor_Nick> | case in point: microsoft |
| 19:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | How do you figure? |
| 19:20 | <@Doctor_Nick> | microsoft believes that they can do it better than everyone else, and everyone else's stuff is crap and deserves to fail |
| 19:20 | <@Doctor_Nick> | opening up their source would lead to people LOOKING AT AND TOUCHING THEIR CODE, SUBMITTING PATCHES, FIXING BUGS |
| 19:20 | <+ErikMesoy> | I wonder what, if anything, will change now that the Bill is gone. |
| 19:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well, ok, first of all, based on some of the internal memos we've seen and on their behaviour in general I don't believe that's the case |
| 19:21 | <@Doctor_Nick> | WHO DO THESE PEOPLE THINK THEY ARE?!!? STOP TOUCHING OUR HIGH QUALITY MICROSOFT CODE!!!!! FILTHY SAVAGES |
| 19:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | Much of their history consists of using cunning business tactics and marketing to outsell superior software, then locking their customers in |
| 19:21 | <+ErikMesoy> | And by "cunning business practices", the DoJ found that they meant "abuse of monopoly power". |
| 19:22 | <+ErikMesoy> | Which they try to spin and deny, but hey, that's life. |
| 19:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | And I don't mean "superior in my estimation", I mean they have explicitly written "we can't fight this on the merits, so let's either (a) shut it out at the retailers or (b) buy it for our own" |
| 19:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | Anyways, that's beside the point. |
| 19:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | Open source doesn't imply anything about submitting patches or similar. |
| 19:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | This is another common mental block. |
| 19:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | And indeed I've spoken with at least one person who thought that open source == anyone can make any change at any time and it's automatically incorporated into the main source tree |
| 19:23 | <@Doctor_Nick> | yes |
| 19:24 | <@Doctor_Nick> | its not like you have to give everybody commit access |
| 19:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah, but some people, or groups, think that you do |
| 19:25 | <@Doctor_Nick> | perceptions are changing, though |
| 19:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | Others are worried about exposing secret information - either stuff they want to be able to charge for access for (game engine licensors, such as ID), or stuff that they don't want competitors to be able to interoperate with (Microsoft, Adobe) |
| 19:26 | <@Doctor_Nick> | adobe's feeling microsoft's squeeze, and that's going to push them to start being more open with their formats |
| 19:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | And still others are under the misapprehension that open source necessarily excludes profit - either because they think all open source is MIT or GPL (and didn't read the whole license), or because they think other people will just start releasing custom builds and undercutting them (and they didn't bother to learn anything about copyright law) |
| 19:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or because they just have some kind of brain damage that causes them to hear "free" whenever anyone else says "open source" |
| 19:29 | <+ErikMesoy> | That's not brain damage. That's intentional misprogramming from certain agents. |
| 19:29 | <@Doctor_Nick> | the economics of free software and free culture aren't really well understood |
| 19:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | Just because it was deliberately inflicted doesn't mean it's not brain damage. |
| 19:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | Doctor_Nick, you're proving my point. |
| 19:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | Open source software is not necessarily free software. |
| 19:30 | <@Doctor_Nick> | free as in freedom :P |
| 19:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | In either sense. |
| 19:30 | <@Doctor_Nick> | are you talking about shared source? |
| 19:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | Unless the ability to examine the source and make, but not distribute, modifications is sufficiently free in your estimation. |
| 19:31 | <@Doctor_Nick> | that's not "open source" by the open source definition |
| 19:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | As defined by...? |
| 19:31 | <@Doctor_Nick> | OSI |
| 19:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok. |
| 19:32 | <@Doctor_Nick> | really, in practical terms, open source is just a marketing term for free software |
| 19:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | The definition I'm working from - the "let's have a hope in hell of actually getting corporations to do this as a matter of routine in my lifetime" definition - is that anyone who gets a copy of the binaries also gets, or can easily procure, a copy of the source usable to create their own builds. |
| 19:32 | <@Doctor_Nick> | bruce perens says that |
| 19:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | It implies nothing about cost, distribution channels, support, redistribution of custom builds, source access for people who don't have the binaries, or anything else. |
| 19:33 | <@Doctor_Nick> | that's shared source |
| 19:34 | <@Doctor_Nick> | wait |
| 19:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | I would like to see a clause that modifications can be redistributed to anyone who would otherwise have access, but that makes uptake exponentially harder even though it shouldn't. |
| 19:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | And forget about modifications redistributable to everyone. |
| 19:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | And by shared source, which shared source? There's like twelve licenses under that name. |
| 19:35 | <@Doctor_Nick> | "shared source" means that the source code is availible, but redistribution is restricted in some fashion |
| 19:36 | <@Doctor_Nick> | like non-commercial licenses |
| 19:36 | <+ErikMesoy> | Anyway, about that campaign. |
| 19:36 | <@Doctor_Nick> | MAME is a good example about this |
| 19:36 | <@Doctor_Nick> | ErikMesoy: did you start it yet |
| 19:36 | <+ErikMesoy> | Not quite. |
| 19:36 | <@Doctor_Nick> | GET TO IT |
| 19:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok, I usually see "shared source" used to mean "ms shared source" and the licenses under it |
| 19:37 | <+ErikMesoy> | Here's an argument to start building on. "I want my friends to play this game. My friends want to buy it. Why are we being denied this by a monopoly?" |
| 19:37 | <@Doctor_Nick> | ToxicFrog: when you say "modifications redistributible to everyone", are you talking about modifications for personal use/use within a single entity |
| 19:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | I've never heard it used to refer to a general type of license |
| 19:37 | <@Doctor_Nick> | ToxicFrog: it's also referred to as "semi-free" |
| 19:37 | <+ErikMesoy> | Where do I go about starting it, anyway? |
| 19:37 | <@Doctor_Nick> | Most people just start a blog and start ranting |
| 19:38 | <@Doctor_Nick> | and hoping they get slashdotted |
| 19:38 | <+ErikMesoy> | Pfffft. |
| 19:38 | <+ErikMesoy> | Sorry, I've taken the pledge. |
| 19:38 | <@Doctor_Nick> | ;) |
| 19:38 | <+ErikMesoy> | By which I mean, the pledge not to suck at the internet. |
| 19:39 | <+ErikMesoy> | It comes with restrictions on never again using a username with a number in it other than my year of birth, not making inane Twitter or blog remarks, not adding more than one Facebook application per month, and stuff like that. |
| 19:39 | <+ErikMesoy> | http://valleywag.com/tech/modern-and-awkward/the-pledge-to-not-suck-at-the-inter net-311053.php |
| 19:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | Anyways, my underlying argument is that "open source software" is not the same as "free software", nor should it be, and while most open source software is also free, and likewise open source licenses, attempts to make them mean the same thing are counterproductive |
| 19:41 | <@Doctor_Nick> | 99.9% of the time, when you're talking about software that fits the open source definition, it also fits the free software definition |
| 19:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. And? |
| 19:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | Read what I just said. |
| 19:42 | <@Doctor_Nick> | and they don't mean the same thing |
| 19:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | Most open source software is free sofware. This doesn't make them synonymous. |
| 19:43 | <@Doctor_Nick> | "open source" doesn't mean freedom for the user, like "free software" does |
| 19:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. This is what I've been saying this entire time. |
| 19:43 | <@Doctor_Nick> | but it also doesn't make companies run for the hills |
| 19:43 | <@Doctor_Nick> | ok :) |
| 19:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | Also that this is a feature. |
| 19:44 | <@Doctor_Nick> | companies hate anything that has the word "free" in it. |
| 19:44 | <@Doctor_Nick> | so open source can be thought of as a marketing term for free software, a trojan horse if you will |
| 19:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | The bug is twofold; one, that a lot of entities think that free and open source are the same thing |
| 19:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | And two, that a lot of entities want them to mean the same thing |
| 19:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | See, I consider that a bad thing. |
| 19:45 | <@Doctor_Nick> | why is that a bad thing? |
| 19:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | It promotes the conflation of "free" and "open source", which in turn makes it harder to drive adoption of the latter among companies which are averse to the former |
| 19:45 | <@Doctor_Nick> | "free software" doesn't mean that you can't sell it |
| 19:45 | <@Doctor_Nick> | yes |
| 19:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | You consider this a good thing? |
| 19:46 | <@Doctor_Nick> | mmm |
| 19:46 | <@Doctor_Nick> | In terms of not having a schism between "free software" and "open source" communities, yeah |
| 19:46 | <@Doctor_Nick> | in terms of commercial adoption, probably not until we see a shift in perception |
| 19:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | It would be nice if we lived in an ideal world, where all the companies had no problems with free software. But we don't, and personally, I'd like to take my victories where I can find them and get them to "open source", if not "free" |
| 19:47 | <@Doctor_Nick> | like i said |
| 19:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | Rather than trying to convince them to jump straight to "free", failing, and losing more source in the meantime |
| 19:47 | <@Doctor_Nick> | when around corporations, just use the term "open source" |
| 19:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aaaagrugharhgusghs |
| 19:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | The point I'm trying to make is that a lot of corporations thing that open source means free |
| 19:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | And a lot of entities, including, as far as I can tell, you, want to increase that perception! |
| 19:47 | <@Doctor_Nick> | it does |
| 19:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | NO! |
| 19:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | IT FUCKING DOESN'T! |
| 19:48 | <@Doctor_Nick> | most of the time |
| 19:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | WE JUST ESTABLISHED THIS |
| 19:48 | <@Doctor_Nick> | ok |
| 19:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | We just went over this very point, and you agreed! |
| 19:48 | <@Doctor_Nick> | lets start over |
| 19:48 | <@Doctor_Nick> | the problem is: companies don't understand FOSS |
| 19:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | Part of this is that companies think all OSS is FOSS. |
| 19:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | Companies that would gladly adopt OSS refuse to, because they see FOSS as the only option. |
| 19:49 | <@Doctor_Nick> | so, you use the term "open source" to describe what is "free software", but you don't mention anything about freedom, you just talk about the practical benefits |
| 19:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | I absolutely reject this approach. |
| 19:50 | <@Doctor_Nick> | ok, so what is your apporach? |
| 19:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well, first of all, my goal: preserve the source code. |
| 19:51 | <@Doctor_Nick> | ok |
| 19:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | I don't particularly care, to start with, whether it's FOSS or OSS, as long as the source is preserved, because if it's still around, you can append the F later. |
| 19:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | If it's not, it does no good to convince the company to move to FOSS and then "wow, it's a pity we don't have the source for X, Y or Z anymore" |
| 19:51 | <+ErikMesoy> | WHERE DO I START THE CAMPAIGN? |
| 19:51 | <@Doctor_Nick> | if the source code is made availible under an OSI-approved license, then its probably OSS and FOSS |
| 19:52 | <@Doctor_Nick> | ErikMesoy: simmer down, we'll work it out |
| 19:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | Leave OSI out of it for the moment. |
| 19:52 | <@Doctor_Nick> | maybe we're arguing over semantics |
| 19:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | So. My goal is just to get the source. |
| 19:52 | <@Doctor_Nick> | when I say OSS, i mean freely availble and freely distributable, like the OSI definition says |
| 19:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | Right, you mean FOSS. |
| 19:52 | <@Doctor_Nick> | ok |
| 19:53 | <@Doctor_Nick> | so thats not OSS |
| 19:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | When I say OSS, I mean "anyone who gets the program gets, or can get, the source" |
| 19:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | The source is open as in available. |
| 19:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's not necessarily free, in either the beer or the freedom sense. |
| 19:53 | <@Doctor_Nick> | but the distribution doesn't necessarily have to be unrestricted? |
| 19:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | I consider that part of free-as-in-freedom. |
| 19:54 | <@Doctor_Nick> | ok, well, you're talking about shared source |
| 19:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | Take, say, Uplink; game is $20. Another $10 gets you the source code, dev notes and tools. The source can't be redistributed, but binaries based on it can be |
| 19:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | I consider this OSS, but not FOSS. |
| 19:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | Shared source typically means the MS Shared Source Licenses, which are not what I'm describing here |
| 19:55 | <@Doctor_Nick> | not according to the OSI-definition of open source |
| 19:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | So let's leave them out of it here |
| 19:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok, so what's the OSI definition |
| 19:55 | <@Doctor_Nick> | http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php |
| 19:55 | <@Doctor_Nick> | that thing |
| 19:55 | <@Doctor_Nick> | the source code is availible and its freely distributable |
| 19:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok. |
| 19:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | How is this different from FOSS in their eyes? |
| 19:56 | <@Doctor_Nick> | its not, really |
| 19:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok. |
| 19:56 | <+ErikMesoy> | ToxicFrog: How many bytes are 1) Total Annihilation.rar and 2) totala1.hpi supposed to be? |
| 19:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | So, let's call the OSI definition of open source FOSS, for the purposes of this discussion |
| 19:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | And my definition OSS. |
| 19:56 | <@Doctor_Nick> | the whole reason that the Open Source movement was started was because ESR and company was afraid that companies couldnt deal with "free software" and richard stallman |
| 19:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | This is my objection. |
| 19:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | You have a company. |
| 19:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | You want them to release the source to Cool Program A. |
| 19:57 | <@Doctor_Nick> | ok |
| 19:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | ErikMesoy: 83617117 and 40709674 |
| 19:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | So, you go to them and start talking about how cool OSS is and how beneficial it could be and how it will if anything increase their profits. |
| 19:58 | <@Doctor_Nick> | ok |
| 19:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | The problem here is that thanks to the efforts of the OSI, every time you say "OSS", they hear "FOSS" |
| 19:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | And where they would probably have gone for OSS, the "free" part is a dealbreaker; they throw you out the boardroom window with your hair on fire. |
| 19:59 | <@Doctor_Nick> | ok |
| 19:59 | <+ErikMesoy> | 40709674 is correct. Checking the other one because it refuses to give me a precise packed size, only an imprecise packed size and a precise unpacked size (92287886)... |
| 19:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | Twenty years later, you've finally convinced them that FOSS is a good idea, but by then the source is long gone. |
| 19:59 | <@Doctor_Nick> | so your main worry is that the source code might be lost |
| 20:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes, and that it may slow uptake of FOSS in general - perhaps if you sold them on OSS, they would have seen the benefits and moved to FOSS in five years rather than twenty. |
| 20:00 | <@Doctor_Nick> | this is a real fear |
| 20:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | But mostly it's the source I'm worried about. |
| 20:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Thanks to the widespread conflation of FOSS with OSS, it becomes nearly impossible to sell someone on OSS - you can only offer FOSS, because even if you say OSS, they hear and understand it as FOSS |
| 20:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which means that it's FOSS or nothing; it becomes next to impossible to convince someone to take a middle ground where the source is available, but not free. |
| 20:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | So, in a case where you can actually convince them of FOSS, it's great. |
| 20:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | But most of the time? You get shafted and the source is lost forever. |
| 20:03 | <@Doctor_Nick> | ok, so what license would the source be under? |
| 20:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | My objection to the "sell them FOSS, but call it OSS" tactic is that it both worsens this situation, and is (depending on how charitable you feel like being) terminologically sloppy or deliberately dishonest. |
| 20:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | The MS Reference Source License would be acceptable; it's not quite as liberal as I would like, but the parts I have issue with are completely unenforceable anyways. |
| 20:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | There's also custom licenses (Uplink, Chrome) |
| 20:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | I don't know of any widely accepted licenses for this kind of thing because, again, the conflation of OSS and FOSS means that most open source licenses are also free software licenses |
| 20:05 | <@Doctor_Nick> | ok |
| 20:06 | <@Doctor_Nick> | so you would be able to look but not be able to redistribute any of the changes |
| 20:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | I would consider that an acceptable starting point, yes. |
| 20:06 | <@Doctor_Nick> | and it would still be illegal to redistribute the game |
| 20:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 20:06 | <@Doctor_Nick> | welp |
| 20:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | I don't consider this an acceptable ending point, but I consider it a way of preserving the source until we can move to something less restrictive, and one which actually has a hope in hell of succeeding |
| 20:07 | <@Doctor_Nick> | have you succeeded in selling anyone on this? |
| 20:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | I have in fact succeeded in selling a few developers on it, but none of them actually had rights to their source any more, so it could be I wouldn't have if they still did. |
| 20:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | I've also failed on others because I was unable to successfully communicate the difference between FOSS and OSS, which is the source of much of my frustration on this issue. |
| 20:09 | <@Doctor_Nick> | have you told them to keep the source in escrow until such a time as you've been able to convince the publishers |
| 20:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | I've never succeeded in convincing the publishers, is the thing. |
| 20:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ever. |
| 20:09 | <@Doctor_Nick> | Ok |
| 20:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | The conversation always comes down to "until you can prove that this will result in immediate, measureable profit for us - not that just that it will cost us nothing, or that it will be good PR, or that it might be profitable - we have nothing to discuss." |
| 20:10 | <@Doctor_Nick> | well |
| 20:10 | <@Doctor_Nick> | we need to change that |
| 20:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | In some cases with a side order of "and we might still be able to license it" - yeah, you'd going to license a 15-year-old game engine to someone... |
| 20:10 | <@Doctor_Nick> | this is why we need a visible campaign with money and people willing to help these companies in open sourcing their changes |
| 20:10 | <@Doctor_Nick> | er |
| 20:10 | <@Doctor_Nick> | source |
| 20:10 | <@Doctor_Nick> | er |
| 20:10 | <@Doctor_Nick> | whatver |
| 20:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | Quite. |
| 20:11 | <@Doctor_Nick> | someone start one tia |
| 20:11 | <+ErikMesoy> | tia? |
| 20:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | TIA? |
| 20:11 | <@Doctor_Nick> | thanks in advance |
| 20:11 | <+ErikMesoy> | I could register a blog. Something like "alternativetopiracy.blogspot.com" |
| 20:12 | <@Doctor_Nick> | but, i mean |
| 20:13 | <@Doctor_Nick> | a skilled marketeer would be able to convince them to OSI-license the source and freeware the games |
| 20:13 | <+ErikMesoy> | Just for the good PR? |
| 20:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | That I doubt. Companies exist to turn a profit. |
| 20:13 | <@Doctor_Nick> | good PR and incresed intrest in an old game would spur sales of a new product in the same line |
| 20:14 | | * Vornicus-Latens considers Bungie. |
| 20:14 | <+ErikMesoy> | Might work if they actually have a new product. |
| 20:14 | <@Doctor_Nick> | what did bungie do |
| 20:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. You mean older stuff, not new releases. |
| 20:14 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | Bungie open sourced the Marathon engine. |
| 20:14 | <@Doctor_Nick> | yeah |
| 20:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | And then, later, released the game data for free as well. |
| 20:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | (much later) |
| 20:14 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | Then a couple years later started handing out the Marathon scenarios for free. |
| 20:14 | <@Doctor_Nick> | we were talking about open-sourcing abandonware |
| 20:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | ErikMesoy: catch |
| 20:15 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | -- but they did so while a subsidiary of Microsoft. |
| 20:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | File sizes and whatnot in there |
| 20:15 | <@Doctor_Nick> | :o |
| 20:15 | | * ErikMesoy catches |
| 20:15 | <@Doctor_Nick> | isn't marathon 2 on xbla? |
| 20:15 | <+ErikMesoy> | The Elder Scrolls 1 was open-sourced as part of publicity for TES 4, wasn't it? |
| 20:15 | <@Doctor_Nick> | i think so |
| 20:15 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | Yep. But it's also available for free with rather a lot of added goodies. |
| 20:16 | <+ErikMesoy> | And we're looking for something in that vein? |
| 20:16 | <@Doctor_Nick> | that would be optimal, yeah |
| 20:16 | <@Doctor_Nick> | "if you liked this old game, check out this new game, its better and its NEW!!!" |
| 20:17 | <+ErikMesoy> | ToxicFrog: Checksum for totala1.hpi (the allegedly corrupt file) matches the copied version. Curious. |
| 20:18 | <+ErikMesoy> | Also byte size, packed and unpacked. |
| 20:18 | <+ErikMesoy> | I'm suspecting the un-rar program now. |
| 20:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah. |
| 20:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | What are you using? |
| 20:18 | <+ErikMesoy> | I was using winRar. |
| 20:18 | <+ErikMesoy> | Will try 7-zip next time. |
| 20:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | I used winrar 3.2 to generate these, I think |
| 20:18 | <+ErikMesoy> | I'm not sure what version I have. |
| 20:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | They work with linux unrar, tho, and should work with winace and 7zip |
| 20:19 | <+ErikMesoy> | But the matching values are a good indication, anyway |
| 20:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | They probably won't work with pre-3.x versions of winrar, though |
| 20:19 | <@Doctor_Nick> | welp |
| 20:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | I do note, however, that the checksum winrar is displaying is the one in the rar header |
| 20:19 | <+ErikMesoy> | Here's what I was checking against: http://s3.tinypic.com/5aq1qv.jpg |
| 20:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | It thinks it's corrupt because, when unpacking it, the checksum of the unpacked data doesn't match the one in the header |
| 20:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah. That's the checksum it *should* have |
| 20:20 | | mode/#code [+ov ErikMesoy DiceBot] by Vornicus-Latens |
| 20:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | It can't determine the checksum it *does* have until it starts unpacking |
| 20:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | And if they don't match, it reports the file as corrupt |
| 20:23 | <@Doctor_Nick> | i'm getting really terrible downstream |
| 20:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | The swarm isn't very large, I'm the only seed, and I have terrible upstream. |
| 20:24 | <@ErikMesoy> | I should be able to begin seeding tomorrow or the day after, with the current ETA. |
| 20:24 | <@ErikMesoy> | And my official upstream is 50MB/s. |
| 20:24 | <@ErikMesoy> | (Not that the effective one is likely be anywhere near that.) |
| 20:24 | <@ErikMesoy> | *to be |
| 20:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | And now, lunch |
| 20:26 | <@ErikMesoy> | However, I suspect my upstream will be more than the average 1KB/s that TF is managing on his poor split telephone line or whatever it is. |
| 20:26 | <@ErikMesoy> | (I've managed to hear two urban legends about it already. :-p) |
| 20:26 | | * gnolam hugs his new ISP. |
| 20:27 | <@Doctor_Nick> | what did your new ISP do |
| 20:27 | <@gnolam> | I'm paying for 100/10, but it's actually 100/"We guarantee at least 10, but we actually give you the bandwidth we have available". |
| 20:27 | <@Shoukanjuu> | niiice |
| 20:27 | <@Doctor_Nick> | who's that |
| 20:27 | <@gnolam> | So 95/35 at my last measurement. |
| 20:35 | <@ErikMesoy> | ToxicFrog: I got around to trying to re-copy Total Annihiliation.rar from the USB to another computer and unzip it there with the latest version of WinRar. Same error message. |
| 20:35 | <@ErikMesoy> | Going to try another unzip program as soon as I can install one there. |
| 20:43 | | Steve is now known as AnnoDomini |
| 20:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | What happens if you just unpack from the USB key? |
| 20:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | And did you ever get utorrent to re-check? |
| 20:55 | <@Doctor_Nick> | urgh |
| 20:55 | <@Doctor_Nick> | i'm getting 500B/s downstream |
| 20:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok, that's lower than it should be; I'm seeding at 2k, and there's a bunch of peers with more of the torrent than you and more upstream than I have |
| 20:55 | | Vornicus-Latens is now known as Vornicus |
| 20:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | (well, ok, there's three) |
| 20:56 | <@ErikMesoy> | I'll try unpacking and re-checking and whatnot in a few minutes, once my sister is done playing Wesnoth on the relevant computer. |
| 20:57 | <@ErikMesoy> | (I do most of my chatting and stuff on my personal lappy; the torrent is running on the big house computer with the firmly secured internet line and whatnot.) |
| 21:00 | <@ErikMesoy> | Torrent stopped. Re-checking and unpacking. |
| 21:00 | <@ErikMesoy> | Holy crap doing extraction inside a USB stick is sloooowwww. |
| 21:00 | <@ErikMesoy> | It's estimating that it'll take 1h 29m to unpack 80MBs. |
| 21:04 | <@Doctor_Nick> | dont do that |
| 21:04 | <@ErikMesoy> | Hmm. Appears to have been a miscalculation, but it's still slow. Sane-ified down to 14m now. |
| 21:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | And the re-check finished and said the files were fine? |
| 21:05 | <@ErikMesoy> | "E:\Total Annihilation.rar: CRC failed in TOTALA\totala1.hpi. The file is corrupt" |
| 21:05 | <@ErikMesoy> | Re-check is 70% done. |
| 21:05 | <@ErikMesoy> | ...the unpack is running into more errors. |
| 21:06 | <@ErikMesoy> | totala3.hpi, totala.exe.nCD, and pretty much everything under \TOTALA\TA-Mutation\ are also corrupt. |
| 21:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | So, everything after totala1.hpi |
| 21:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which is expected; it's a solid archive. |
| 21:07 | <@ErikMesoy> | Funny; I didn't get all the other errors when I copied it off and unpacked it. |
| 21:07 | <@ErikMesoy> | This is really weird. |
| 21:08 | <@ErikMesoy> | Also, the re-check is redoing about 2MB of Total Annihilation.rar |
| 21:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | I reiterate: what are the results of the check? |
| 21:08 | <@ErikMesoy> | ^^ |
| 21:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | That would be the problem. |
| 21:09 | <@ErikMesoy> | I'm wondering where the new errors came from, though. |
| 21:09 | <@Vornicus> | new errors are from it not stopping when it hits an error. |
| 21:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | What vorn said. |
| 21:28 | | Attilla [~The.Attil@92.9.59.ns-21252] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 21:28 | | Attilla [~The.Attil@92.9.59.ns-21252] has joined #code |
| 21:28 | | mode/#code [+o Attilla] by ChanServ |
| 21:51 | <@ErikMesoy> | Ooh, that's interesting. A 1978 chessplaying algorithm on a 2008 computer is far worse at chess than a 2008 algorithm on a 1978 computer. |
| 21:51 | <@ErikMesoy> | Quantifying how much better is difficult, but the latter seems to find the best move in a situation about 600 times faster. |
| 21:53 | <@Doctor_Nick> | so |
| 21:53 | <@Doctor_Nick> | did it work |
| 21:53 | <@Doctor_Nick> | the ta thing |
| 21:53 | <@ErikMesoy> | It's still redownloading after the re-check. |
| 22:09 | | ErikMesoy is now known as ErikMesoy|sleep |
| 22:23 | <@Doctor_Nick> | whenever a program crashes, the computer should simulate bursting into flames |
| 22:35 | | * Vornicus gives Doctor_Nick a bomb dialog. |
| 22:56 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 23:01 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 23:23 | <@McMartin> | Ahahahahaha. "I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone." - Bjarne Stroustrup |
| 23:23 | <@Vornicus> | Yay! Bjarne agrees with me! |
| 23:52 | <@Doctor_Nick> | man |
| 23:52 | <@Doctor_Nick> | fuck space quest 3 |
| 23:53 | | * AnnoDomini doesn't have a cellphone. |
| 23:53 | | * AnnoDomini doesn't want a cellphone. |
| 23:53 | <@Doctor_Nick> | ok |
| 23:58 | | * Kazriko has a cellphone, but doesn't want one either. |
| 23:58 | | * McMartin has one because it's cheaper than landline long-distance. |
| 23:58 | <@McMartin> | And I essentially never make local calls. |
| 23:58 | | * Kazriko uses packet8 at home |
| 23:59 | | * gnolam has a cell phone but no landline. |
| --- Log closed Tue Jul 01 00:00:22 2008 |