| --- Log opened Tue Apr 22 00:00:33 2008 |
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| 08:53 | | * C_tiger decides he needs to learn JS. |
| 08:53 | <@McMartin> | JS, like assembly, is for machines to generate. |
| 08:54 | <@C_tiger> | I need to learn how to generate it? |
| 08:55 | <@McMartin> | Well, stuff like Google Web Toolkit is apparently the best bet, I hear |
| 08:55 | <@Kazriko> | AppEngine? |
| 08:55 | <@Kazriko> | or something more front-endish? |
| 08:55 | <@Kazriko> | Ahh. java script. |
| 08:56 | <@C_tiger> | Meh, maybe not. |
| 08:56 | | * Kazriko needs to get an ajax toolkit of some sort... |
| 08:57 | <@Kazriko> | Hand-coded javascript is such a pain, you practically need to keep 3 versions of every function in the program due to IE5 vs IE 6 vs IE7 vs Everyone else. |
| 09:00 | <@McMartin> | At least it's not necessary to support NS4 anymore. |
| 09:01 | | * Kazriko just decided to not support IE at all on his last 2 web applications. |
| 09:01 | <@McMartin> | That seems like it would damage your possible audience |
| 09:01 | <@Kazriko> | Could do that because in both cases, the audience was fairly limited. In one case it was an HMI for 3-4 users, the other it was only for my own use. |
| 09:02 | <@McMartin> | Core JS is actually a pretty cute language. |
| 09:02 | <@Kazriko> | In the case of the HMI, it was a limitation in a third party java module that caused that particular snafu. The java module and javascript on IE couldn't pass arrays back and forth. |
| 09:02 | <@McMartin> | It's too bad that it's used to drive the most heinous library never crafted by man nor machine |
| 09:03 | | * Kazriko curses siemens and their lousy java based crud. |
| 09:03 | <@Kazriko> | yeah. the library is rather dreadful. |
| 09:04 | <@Kazriko> | The only way to access variables on their plc? Their java glob. bleh. |
| 09:04 | <@McMartin> | Java is great, but not as a web frontend. =P |
| 09:04 | <@Kazriko> | nod. |
| 09:04 | <@Kazriko> | and not for what they were using it for. |
| 09:04 | <@Kazriko> | I had about 40 variables i needed to poll for the webpage... |
| 09:05 | <@Kazriko> | to do it the way they envisioned it and the only way IE could do it, i'd need 40 separate java applets on the page. |
| 09:05 | <@Kazriko> | The firefox code could use arrays and reduced it to about 4 java applets. |
| 09:05 | | * McMartin can't say he's a fan of server-side Java for webapps, but it seems no worse than most other options. |
| 09:06 | <@Kazriko> | well, the server side in this case is some 8, 16, 32? bit embedded controller running likely IEC61131 or some equally brainless language. |
| 09:07 | <@McMartin> | Even though it's what it was originally designed to do, I do not understand why Java is considered acceptable for embedded work. |
| 09:07 | <@McMartin> | [* Except for downloadable executables that you need a sandbox for, like Android and such.] |
| 09:07 | <@Kazriko> | the java applet was just the client-side glue to link the iec61131 app to web/javascript. |
| 09:07 | <@McMartin> | Ah, the sweet taste of Legacy Code. |
| 09:08 | <@Kazriko> | pretty much, though IEC61131 is still alive and kicking, being propped up by some european electrical engineering committee. |
| 09:09 | <@Kazriko> | And it turned out just like you would expect a language by committee to turn out. :p |
| 09:10 | | * Kazriko has a project on his medium-term list to port the entire IEC61131 app his company uses to C. |
| 09:10 | <@McMartin> | I've actually never even heard of IEC61131 before now. |
| 09:11 | <@Kazriko> | It's only used in industrial automation. |
| 09:11 | <@Kazriko> | where it is unfortunately THE standard. |
| 09:11 | <@Kazriko> | it's a *very small* step up from Ladder Logic based systems. |
| 09:12 | <@Kazriko> | http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/83/Ladder_diagram.png << a modern version of ladder logic coding. |
| 09:13 | <@Kazriko> | (that's actually IEC61131 ladder diagrams. It was retained because it's a darn committee.) |
| 09:15 | <@Kazriko> | Naptime, gotta debug a system in the field in 7 hours. |
| 09:16 | <@McMartin> | Good luck |
| 09:16 | <@Kazriko> | (Ah, to show you how screwed up automation is, another "the industry standard" of automation is OPC, which is OLE for Process Control. Yes, that moldy windows OLE.) |
| 09:17 | <@McMartin> | The closest I ever got to automation is playing with a CnC wood drill in 8th grade. |
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| --- Log closed Wed Apr 23 00:00:39 2008 |