| --- Log opened Tue Feb 26 00:00:16 2008 |
| 00:20 | | AnnoDomini [AnnoDomini@83.21.86.ns-4117] has quit [Quit: Oh, I'm no end-table. I'm a nightstand.] |
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| 04:00 | | Jen is now known as Bellamy |
| 04:41 | | GeekSoldier|bed is now known as GeekSoldier |
| 04:44 | | GeekSoldier is now known as GeekSoldier|work |
| 04:51 | | * Reiver decides, in order to get his VB-brain properly oiled, to code the FizzBuzz problem. |
| 04:52 | <@Reiver> | Step one: Get VB working in Excel, because I don't have the dev programs till next week~ |
| 04:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | ... |
| 04:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh, right. |
| 04:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | The group work stuff. |
| 04:55 | | * ToxicFrog puts Reiv on a Lua IV to keep him sane while he works with toxic materials |
| 04:58 | <@Reiver> | It was either that or C# |
| 04:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | Personally, I'd go with C#, but neither is an attractive proposition. |
| 04:59 | <@Reiver> | The main thing is that I've had to work in VB before. |
| 05:00 | <@Reiver> | Thus I am at least vaugely familiar with it, whilst my C# experience is limited to C from many moons ago and an awareness that it is a pain in the butt. |
| 05:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | C# is closer to Java than to C. |
| 05:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | But yes, I follow your rationale. |
| 05:03 | <@Reiver> | Hm. How much closer? I'm more familiar with Java than VB, but more familiar with VB than with C. |
| 05:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | That, I can't give you a helpful answer on, because I've barely poked C#. |
| 05:06 | | * Vornicus would choose C# over VB any day of the week, and he hasn't even /used/ C#. |
| 05:07 | <@Reiver> | Vorn: I know that VB is full of scum and lies. |
| 05:07 | <@Reiver> | I had to code it inside Access for three months. |
| 05:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | I do know, however, that it uses references, garbage collection, classes and interfaces, automatic accessors, and (unlike Java thank god) a unified type system. |
| 05:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...so, actually, much much closer to Java. |
| 05:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | Still too bondage-and-discipline for my taste, but considering what it was modeled on that's not really surprising. |
| 05:11 | <@McMartin> | C# is Java + Delphi, basically. |
| 05:11 | <@McMartin> | And fixes most of Java's biggest wtfs. |
| 05:11 | <@Reiver> | Hrmn. Mostly I need to be able to get my head around syntax to the point of outputting basic code in a hurry. |
| 05:11 | <@McMartin> | Automatic accessors and automatic method calls on losing scope are the biggies. |
| 05:12 | <@McMartin> | Java as of 1.5 has as much of a unified type system as C#; both do automatic boxing and unboxing. |
| 05:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | Java's autoboxing doesn't work, though. |
| 05:12 | | * Reiver goes about poking around for C# tutorials, then. Wishes he had an inbuilt compiler like he does for VB (It may be neutered, but it comes with Office, which is enough to learn how to get Hello World and FizzBuzz in~) |
| 05:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | It works for assignments, calls and returns but not method calls. |
| 05:13 | <@McMartin> | Er, you listed calls on both the works and doesn't? Can you be more precise? |
| 05:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | takesInteger(returnsInt()) |
| 05:13 | <@McMartin> | (I've only really messed with it in the context of Generics) |
| 05:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | Is legal. |
| 05:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | Integer foo = returnsInt() is legal, as is the converse. |
| 05:14 | <@Vornicus> | anInt.integerMethod() on the other hand... |
| 05:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | returnsInt().toString() is an error, because toString is not a method on <primitive type int>, only on Integer. |
| 05:14 | <@McMartin> | Ah, I see what you mean. |
| 05:14 | <@McMartin> | That's not boxing. I grasp your initial statement now, which I initially misinterpreted. |
| 05:15 | <@McMartin> | That said, AIUI, VB's interface builders still beat C#'s. |
| 05:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | Whereas AUIU that will work in C#, because int behaves in all circumstances like something that's actually in the class tree. |
| 05:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | Reiver: check out Mono. |
| 05:15 | <@Vornicus> | And then of course there's takesArrayOfIntegers(int[]) which fails. |
| 05:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | Free, open-source C# compiler and CLR. |
| 05:15 | | * McMartin nods. "I blame C for that one." |
| 05:16 | <@McMartin> | Also, Mono is named for monkeys. |
| 05:16 | <@McMartin> | Everybody loves monkeys. |
| 05:16 | <@McMartin> | (Also, Mono works now) |
| 05:16 | <@Vornicus> | Yay monkeys! |
| 05:16 | | * Vornicus has always wanted a monkey. |
| 05:16 | <@Reiver> | TF: Oooh, thanks. |
| 05:16 | | * McMartin may have used too many monkeys. |
| 05:16 | <@Vornicus> | No such thing! |
| 05:17 | <@McMartin> | o/~ Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you o/~ |
| 05:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | (there's also .GNU and Portable.NET, but I have no idea if they're usable yet) |
| 05:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oo. There's a Dynamic Language Runtime in the works. |
| 05:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | I wonder if it'll be useful. |
| 05:21 | | * Reiver will be using the microsoft .net tools, once he gets up and running. |
| 05:21 | | * ToxicFrog nods |
| 05:21 | <@Reiver> | (University is handing the software out like candy sprinkles.) |
| 05:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | Until you actually get those, though, Mono will be handy. |
| 05:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | (and may even remain handy once you do - running the .net toolchain on a linux machine is variously impossible or a pain in the ass depending on what you're doing with it) |
| 05:22 | <@McMartin> | The latest versions of Visual Studio are actually quite nice. |
| 05:23 | | * ToxicFrog figures out how to do the lexer for struct.* right |
| 05:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ie, rather than lexing character by character, s/<every token pattern>/ \1 /g and then split() |
| 05:25 | | * ToxicFrog also writes down some notes on how pre- and post-repetition need to be handled, praises the gods of first-class functions, and goes to shower |
| 05:27 | <@Reiver> | Hokay den. |
| 05:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok. Sanity checks please. |
| 05:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | The format string processor works by turning the string into tokens and then turning the tokens into a list of functions (or, more generally, a function which walks that list) |
| 05:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | Seek and endianness controls are translated into functions that make the appropriate calls. |
| 05:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | IO markers are translated into functions which do the appropriate IO, taking or returning values. |
| 05:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | {...} and (...) sequences cause the parser to be re-invoked on their contents, thus translating into a single function. |
| 05:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | Postfix repetition pops the last function in the list and pushes a function which calls it n times. |
| 05:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | Prefix repetition gets the next() function and pushes a function which calls it n times. |
| 05:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | Naming wraps the next() function in something that stores the return value appropriately rather than the default behavior of simply packing it into the end of the return list. |
| 05:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | {} are also wrapped in a function that packs a subtable rather than talking to the return list directly. |
| 05:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | Thoughts? |
| 05:57 | | GeekSoldier|work [~Rob@Nightstar-8910.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
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| 07:42 | | Vornicus is now known as Vornicus-Latens |
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| 16:13 | | Serah [~Z@87.72.35.ns-26506] has joined #Code |
| 16:13 | <@MyCatVerbs> | 'lo Serah. How're you holding up? |
| 16:14 | < Serah> | Five by five. |
| 16:16 | <@MyCatVerbs> | Your life is both loud and clear? |
| 16:17 | < Serah> | Yup. |
| 16:17 | | * MyCatVerbs is imagining some form of... unambiguous rock concert. |
| 16:18 | < Serah> | Hehe. |
| 16:18 | < Serah> | I'm ocupied most of my time, doing stuff, but there aint any worries or obscurities. |
| 16:18 | < Serah> | Except for the purpose of life, which I am still pondering. |
| 16:19 | < Serah> | Or rather, my purpose in life. |
| 16:20 | | * MyCatVerbs has, personally, settled on "do cool things, whatever they may be." |
| 16:21 | <@MyCatVerbs> | It's admittedly quite ambiguous in that it doesn't really say exactly what direction to go in, but it does at least provide good guidance for how to progress in any particular direction - full steam ahead! Preferrably heading towards the nearest waterfall, wearing a pirate hat. ^_^ |
| 16:26 | < Serah> | Heh. |
| 16:26 | | * Serah PatPats MyCatVerbs. |
| 16:27 | < Serah> | Why is all the cool people gathered in a channel I know very little of? |
| 16:27 | <@MyCatVerbs> | Yay, affection! *hugs* |
| 16:27 | <@MyCatVerbs> | Not *all* the cool people. There are also cool people elsewhere. |
| 16:28 | <@MyCatVerbs> | It just seems that way because Nighstar has relatively few patrons, of whom a relatively high proportion are cool. :) |
| 16:28 | < Serah> | Oh, that might be. |
| 16:28 | | * MyCatVerbs wonders where he could get a pirate hat on short notice. |
| 16:28 | < Serah> | But you got a scoopload of morons too. |
| 16:28 | <@gnolam> | Guilty! |
| 16:28 | <@gnolam> | ;) |
| 16:28 | <@MyCatVerbs> | On nightstar? |
| 16:28 | < Serah> | No, not you. |
| 16:29 | <@MyCatVerbs> | gnolam: damn you for thinking of that before I could. XD |
| 16:29 | < Serah> | That's why I like being here. |
| 16:29 | < Serah> | The only moron in here would be me, if any. For being in a coding channel without being able to code ( very well / at all ). |
| 16:30 | <@MyCatVerbs> | Serah: well, some of the channels are more, ah, drama-ey than others. #code just happens to be pretty much the single place on the internet least likely to be featured in encyclopedia dramatica. |
| 16:30 | <@MyCatVerbs> | Serah: and that certainly isn't the case. Your interest in learning more does you far more credit than would a large but stagnated skill set. |
| 16:31 | < Serah> | How do you know wether I want to learn :p |
| 16:31 | <@MyCatVerbs> | For starters, you're in here. |
| 16:31 | <@MyCatVerbs> | Also, you ask sane and interesting questions. |
| 16:32 | | * gnolam is a staunch believer in knowledge osmosis. |
| 16:33 | < Serah> | Ok, you got me. |
| 16:33 | <@MyCatVerbs> | Serah: I've also found watching people here talk about things *way* over my head turned out to be a pretty good incentive to learn a lot of things properly, which has helped. |
| 16:34 | < Serah> | Unfortunately, people talk about things I do not want to need to learn. |
| 16:35 | <@MyCatVerbs> | :/ |
| 16:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | Like what? |
| 16:39 | < Serah> | php |
| 16:40 | <@MyCatVerbs> | By experience, meh. By reputation, aieeeeeee! |
| 16:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | I don't think there's anyone who wants to learn that, just people who have to~ |
| 16:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | But it doesn't really get discussed much in here in any case. |
| 16:44 | <@gnolam> | It gets cursed a lot though. :P |
| 16:50 | <@gnolam> | Often by me. |
| 16:51 | <@TheWatcher> | Or me ¬¬ |
| 17:04 | | GeekSoldier|work is now known as GeekSoldier |
| 17:11 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
| 18:12 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
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| 20:33 | | Attilla [~The.Attil@194.72.70.ns-11849] has quit [Quit: <Insert Humorous and/or serious exit message here>] |
| 20:34 | <@jerith> | MyCatVerbs: You obviously haven't seen Vorn, Chalain and I discussing Ruby and Python. :-P |
| 20:34 | <@EvilDarkLord> | Ooh. This I gotta see. |
| 20:36 | <@jerith> | Chalain is a big fan of Ruby. Vorn and I are rather smarter than he is and thus prefer Python. |
| 20:36 | <@jerith> | (Note: that comment was entirely subjective.) |
| 20:37 | <@jerith> | However, all three of us have written substantial amounts of code in both. |
| 20:37 | <@jerith> | The conversations got heated and deeply technical, but never actually nasty. |
| 20:37 | <@MyCatVerbs> | jerith: as it should be. |
| 20:38 | <@jerith> | In the end, we decided to agree to disagree. |
| 20:39 | <@jerith> | Although I eagerly absorb any Ruby wisdom Chalain has to offer, since I write quite a lot of it for work. |
| 21:02 | <@EvilDarkLord> | The Rails kind? |
| 21:04 | <@jerith> | Nope. |
| 21:07 | | Attilla [~The.Attil@194.72.70.ns-11849] has joined #code |
| 21:42 | | Forj [~Forj@Nightstar-10679.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #code |
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| 21:42 | | Forj is now known as Chalcedon |
| 21:46 | <@MyCatVerbs> | jerith: pray tell why _do_ you prefer Python over Ruby? Do be aware that I'm asking from a position of near-total ignorance here, having used neither. |
| 21:46 | <@jerith> | Python's cleaner, IMHO. |
| 21:47 | <@jerith> | And has a more mature community. |
| 21:47 | <@jerith> | Ruby's all about metaprogramming and magic, Python's all about explicitness and readable code. |
| 21:47 | <@MyCatVerbs> | Hmmm. That Zed gentleman's rants were very funny, though. :) |
| 21:48 | <@jerith> | Yeah, but he was trolling. |
| 21:48 | <@gnolam> | Funny in the timecube sense only. |
| 21:48 | <@jerith> | Which is not to say that there wasn't a certain amount of truth in there. |
| 21:48 | | * MyCatVerbs does enjoy a good rant. |
| 22:26 | | Netsplit DeepThought.NY.US.Nightstar.Net <-> Blargh.CA.US.Nightstar.Net quits: GeekSoldier|bed, @gnolam |
| 22:26 | | Netsplit over, joins: GeekSoldier|bed |
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| 22:39 | | Brother_Willibald is now known as gnolam |
| 22:52 | | * gnolam tries to remember how to sort circular lists. |
| 22:55 | | * McMartin would add that as far as he can tell, Ruby's metaprogramming capabilities are strictly weaker than Python's. |
| 22:55 | <@McMartin> | Plus, the Ruby community thinks it's really hot shit, which is often something of a turnoff. |
| 22:56 | <@McMartin> | Especially when more than half of the tutorials are of the form: |
| 22:56 | <@McMartin> | "Oh, you want to sort a list/compute square roots/whatever? That's so easy in Ruby! You just do this: |
| 22:57 | <@McMartin> | 3.repeat(???!!??:!!!??|xdiwerjdfSdc\NOCARRIER |
| 22:57 | <@McMartin> | Isn't that eminently straightforward?! |
| 22:58 | <@McMartin> | I still haven't found a proper grammar for the damned thing that explained in sequence what all the constructs did. |
| 22:58 | <@McMartin> | Just lots of assertions that it was really easy to do. |
| 22:58 | <@McMartin> | After asking in here - which actually took about three tries to even get the *question* right - I was able to work out what the |...| construct was. |
| 22:59 | <@McMartin> | And despite their grand claims for it, it's strictly weaker than another one of Ruby's own constructs. |
| 23:00 | | * Vornicus-Latens returns. |
| 23:00 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | So, test in Digital Circuits today. |
| 23:00 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | I was the first to finish. |
| 23:00 | <@Reiver> | eep? |
| 23:00 | | Vornicus-Latens is now known as Vornicus |
| 23:01 | <@Vornicus> | I put the test on his desk, and he says "That's just insulting!" |
| 23:01 | <@Vornicus> | "...what?" |
| 23:01 | <@Vornicus> | "I didn't even finish it yet!" |
| 23:01 | <@Reiver> | pfffff |
| 23:01 | <@Reiver> | Pray that you got it right~ |
| 23:01 | <@Vornicus> | Yes. |
| 23:03 | | * Vornicus pwnz0r'd it, really |
| 23:03 | | * Reiver ponders. |
| 23:03 | <@Reiver> | What's your class makeup like, Vorn? |
| 23:04 | <@Vornicus> | In what sense? |
| 23:05 | <@Reiver> | Are you sitting in a polytech with a bunch of school leavers, or adults doing retraining, or? |
| 23:06 | <@Vornicus> | It's more than half "minority" - this is a community college in the inner city - four girls, a dozen guys - most are older than me - there's maybe one I would consider hiring as an engineer. |
| 23:07 | <@Reiver> | Hm, so |
| 23:08 | <@Reiver> | I was mostly trying to guess at their education level, and thus the aim of the course. |
| 23:08 | <@Reiver> | I mean, I rather suspect you'd be grossly overqualified for everything up to and including university level studies, but still ;) |
| 23:13 | | * Vornicus is not exactly a grizzled coder with years of experience in the trenches, but has an engineer's mind. Now, if only other people would see it that way. |
| 23:18 | <@Vornicus> | So, Python's got this thing called "eggs", kinda like Ruby's "gems" |
| 23:18 | <@Vornicus> | It'snot standard - neither at that is gems - but I didn't think it was all that hot. |
| 23:18 | <@Vornicus> | Until I installed sqlalchemy. |
| 23:19 | <@Vornicus> | sqlalchemy apparently needs a lot of stuff... so what its installer does is it has eggs inside it, and /runs that/ to get its dependencies. |
| 23:28 | | * Vornicus didn't even have to install eggs to get that to happen. |
| 23:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | Cool. |
| 23:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | Lua has "rocks", which serves the same purpose, but I don't know how finished it is. |
| 23:33 | <@Vornicus> | ...rocks. |
| 23:33 | <@Vornicus> | ...oh. moon rocks. |
| 23:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 23:40 | | * Serah rawrs. |
| 23:41 | < Serah> | :p |
| 23:57 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| --- Log closed Wed Feb 27 00:00:22 2008 |