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code logs -> 2008 -> Sat, 16 Feb 2008< code.20080215.log - code.20080217.log >
--- Log opened Sat Feb 16 00:00:11 2008
00:09 You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2]
00:11 You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ]
00:43 McMartin [~mcmartin@Nightstar-9474.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #code []
00:43 McMartin [~mcmartin@Nightstar-9474.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #code
00:43 mode/#code [+o McMartin] by ChanServ
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01:22
<@AnnoDomini>
Hrm. Opera totally craps out if there's no space on the system disk.
01:23
<@AnnoDomini>
Kept crashing when I tried downloading, rather than provide a prompt that there's a write error or something, and also lost half my bookmarks.
01:24 AnnoDomini [AnnoDomini@83.21.49.ns-4142] has quit [Quit: He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.]
01:43 Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon
02:55
< C_tiger>
Hmmm... perl references are at the same time cool and godawful
03:00
<@Derakon>
?
03:05
< C_tiger>
You can totally get away with $#$a and even more evil stuff like $#${${${$a}[1]}{'foo'}}[0]
03:05
< C_tiger>
Because who cares about readability.
03:05
<@McMartin>
???!!!??:!!??
03:05
<@Derakon>
While that is indeed valid Perl, it is also the work of someone who has passed straight through "raving lunatic", back to "sane", and right on back to "raving lunatic" again. Fifteen times.
03:06
<@McMartin>
My quote was merely valid Ruby
03:06
< Vornicus>
...good god.
03:06
<@Derakon>
And also valid whatever that language was where any ASCII string was valid, McM.
03:06
<@McMartin>
I guess it is valid whitespace, though it doesn't do anything interesting.
03:07
< C_tiger>
Ok, to be fair, you actually only need $#{$a[1]{'foo'}[0]}
03:07
< C_tiger>
I think.
03:07
< C_tiger>
Maybe.
03:07
< C_tiger>
because pairing brackets automatically dereferences.
03:07
< C_tiger>
I think.
03:07
< C_tiger>
maybe.
03:08
<@Derakon>
$a[1] is the second element of the list @a. Putting {'foo'} after means to extract the value that the key 'foo' points to from that element. Then you take the first element of the resulting list, and return the last valid index into that list.
03:08
<@Derakon>
(The last list being the result of said first element)
03:09
< C_tiger>
and the $# means that that array element should contain an array and to count its elements.
03:09
< C_tiger>
and return the number of elements.
03:10
<@Derakon>
I'm pretty certain it returns the last valid index, so it's (numElements - 1).
03:10
< C_tiger>
Right.
03:10
< C_tiger>
sorry.
03:10
< C_tiger>
Yes.
03:10
< C_tiger>
I use it so often in foreach loops that I just THINK of it as number of elements, even though that's only true if perl were 1-indexed.
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09:05
<@McMartin>
Whee
09:05 * McMartin gets Blorple to display a table of files.
09:09 AnnoDomini [AnnoDomini@83.21.49.ns-4142] has joined #Code
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09:12
< Vornicus>
Wootsauce
09:15
<@McMartin>
I cannot, however, get the OSX version to accept command-line arguments.
09:16
< Vornicus>
:(
09:17 NSGuest-5074 [~Z@87.72.35.ns-26506] has joined #Code
09:18
<@McMartin>
That just means it won't look pretty until after I get the dialogue boxes working for scans.
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09:25
<@McMartin>
Hmm. I wonder if I can get selection to work right without having to subclass.
09:26
<@McMartin>
Aha, there it is.
09:32
<@McMartin>
Bingo
09:33 * McMartin uses anonymous inner classes.
09:33
<@McMartin>
table.getSelectionModel().addListSelectionListener(new ListSelectionListener() { ... });
09:35
<@McMartin>
Verbose, but preferable to actually subclassing widgets.
09:41
<@McMartin>
Heh. OK, *That's* a problem.
09:41
<@McMartin>
On non-Macs there is no quit key~
09:41
< Vornicus>
pff.
09:42
<@McMartin>
Though Alt-F4 still works.
09:42
<@McMartin>
I think adding standard dialogue boxes is next on my list, though, followed by a proper set of Split Panes.
09:43
<@McMartin>
Adding the Image/Desc display and the Scan Directory dialogue box will cover most of what I want.
09:43
<@McMartin>
I should probably also allow double-click to launch your interpreter of choice, but that's a little bit in the future -- I need OS detection first.
09:44
<@McMartin>
http://www.stanford.edu/~mcmartin/misc/blorple-2.png
09:44
< Vornicus>
shiny.
09:45
< Vornicus>
Alternatively you could make a cross-platform version of MacZoom.
09:46
<@McMartin>
That is effectively what I'm doing here. =P
09:46
<@McMartin>
Most of Zoom's browsers are OS specific.
09:46
<@McMartin>
Very, very OS specific.
09:47 * McMartin also isn't quite doing the same thing as Zoom.
09:47
<@McMartin>
Zoom's primary notion is the file.
09:47
<@McMartin>
Right now, so is Blorple's, but I intend it to eventually use the IFID as its golden identifier, with "Oh yeah, I have a copy of that game" as a side-effect.
09:48 * McMartin is actually more interested in having Blorple properly index and auto-file a collection than to do stuff on its own.
09:48
<@McMartin>
Zooms group management is *awful*
09:48
<@McMartin>
Zoom's, even.
09:50
<@McMartin>
Also also, zoom isn't iFiction-compliant, which I learned to my cost during testing. >_<
09:50
<@McMartin>
Or rather, it's using the incompatible 0.9 version of iFiction, not the one in the Treaty of Babel.
09:51
< Vornicus>
Treaty of Babel?
09:51
<@McMartin>
http://babel.ifarchive.org/
09:52
<@McMartin>
The new-ish IF metadata format.
09:52
<@McMartin>
How nfrotz collects title/author/etc. from games it plays.
09:52
<@McMartin>
Also how Zoom does, sometimes, but it lets the user edit them in unwise ways.
09:53 * McMartin is starting purely as a viewer. Full editing/grouping comes later, if at all.
09:53
< Vornicus>
how complete is the IF archive?
09:54
<@McMartin>
Almost perfectly, at least for noncommercial stuff, and sometimes then.
09:55
<@McMartin>
The only exceptions are subgroups that have their own cliques and distribution channels, and even then they've been gravitating to the Archive as word gets around.
09:55
<@McMartin>
The people using Quest and Adrift didn't use it much at first (Adrift maintains its own), but in recent years they've started submitting more regularly.
09:55
<@McMartin>
You have to submit to the Archive to qualify for the Xyzzy Awards.
09:56
<@McMartin>
Which are in their nomination phase for 2007, I note.
09:56
<@McMartin>
Anything that is submitted to one of the r*if-sponsored competitions is always uploaded - this includes SpeedIFs.
09:57
< Vornicus>
How many different common (as in, used by multiple authors) IF engines are there?
09:58
<@McMartin>
Z-Code, Glulx, TADS 2, TADS 3, Adrift.
09:58
<@McMartin>
For anything else, All Bets Are Off, generally speaking.
09:58
< Vornicus>
What's "Quest"?
09:58
<@McMartin>
Windows-only Adrift-like system.
09:58
< Vornicus>
Aha.
09:58
<@McMartin>
Adrift is also largely Windows-only but has bad interpreters available elsewhere.
09:59 * Vornicus nods.
09:59
<@McMartin>
Formerly relevant languages include AGT and ALAN.
09:59
< Vornicus>
I know glulx can handle all sorts of fancy images and crap, what's TADS good for?
09:59
< Vornicus>
And Adrift?
09:59
<@McMartin>
TADS predates Inform.
10:00
<@McMartin>
TADS 3 and Inform 7 have essentially opposite design philosophies.
10:00
<@McMartin>
Adrift isn't good for anything, if I'm in a bad mood, and I usually am~
10:00
< Vornicus>
*snrk*
10:00
< Vornicus>
So, TADS 3 is designed to be essentially as low-level as possible?
10:01
<@McMartin>
Inform 7's design philosophy matches Scheme's.
10:01
<@McMartin>
TADS 3's is more like Java.
10:01
< Vornicus>
aha.
10:01
<@McMartin>
T3 has a Ridiculously Enormous Standard Library that covers nearly everything, but Good Fucking Luck Finding it.
10:01 Raif [~corvusign@67.161.90.ns-4200] has joined #Code
10:01
< Vornicus>
Okay.
10:01
<@McMartin>
It's also got the best parser/basic world model out there, and can automatically handle boatloads of simulation stuff.
10:02
<@McMartin>
As well as automatic collation of like objects and such.
10:02
<@McMartin>
I7 is very openly and explicitly playing catchup here, and is trying to do it more modularly.
10:02
< Vornicus>
Whereas Inform, you get the standard verbs and pretty much everything else you have to handle yourself... but at least the language is pretty?
10:03
<@McMartin>
I7 is, as I said, like Scheme. The core is intended to be small and clean, and then you plug in the parts you want, and it should all interact.
10:03
<@McMartin>
T3 has an enormously complex library for conversation built into Actor and related classes.
10:03
< Vornicus>
Heh.
10:03
<@McMartin>
I7 has six conflicting extensions (two of which I wrote!) for handling conversation.
10:03
< Vornicus>
Pff
10:03
<@McMartin>
It's also got a simulation of T3's system but it's vastly harder to use (having tried to use both).
10:04
< Vornicus>
Well, your two extensions don't really conflict... the second just makes it so the first is used even to initiate conversation.
10:04
<@McMartin>
My problem with T3 is best noted by the fact that in order to lay out a map properly, you need to learn the distinguishing features of 25 different classes that correspond to different shades of location and connector.
10:04
< Vornicus>
Do you see any of the various extensions as likely to be the winner?
10:05
<@McMartin>
Furthermore, "Room" is about three levels of inheritance down.
10:05
< Vornicus>
Yeah, that's Java-tacular.
10:05
<@McMartin>
Except Java isn't also packed with multiple inheritance, and Object has rather fewer than 500 public methods.
10:05
< Vornicus>
Heh
10:05
<@McMartin>
Maybe Ada is a better example~
10:06
<@McMartin>
Also, T3 binaries tend to be about half a meg, simply due to Library Weight.
10:06
<@McMartin>
Anyway.
10:06
<@McMartin>
If I7 is COBOL, and T3 is Ada, Adrift is VB.
10:06
<@McMartin>
It's a "programming-free" system that works via form-filling. I understand Quest is similar but even more limited.
10:07
<@McMartin>
Adrift's idea of a parser is to match the entire input against a set of regular expressions, which produces vile misunderstandings unless the "non-programmer" is actually a very skilled programmer indeed.
10:07
< Vornicus>
Heh
10:07
<@McMartin>
As a community it's been whining for respect from the mainstream for many years but it didn't earn it until about 2005 or so.
10:08
<@McMartin>
To date, there are no classics written in Adrift, and the one that came closest was eventually ported to TADS 2.
10:08
< Vornicus>
Heh
10:08
<@McMartin>
T3 managed at least one classic before the binary was standardized, and now I can't play it =(
10:08
< Vornicus>
:(
10:09
<@McMartin>
This being Max Blaster and Doris de Lightning Against The Parrot Creatures of Venus.
10:09
< Vornicus>
...that's... quite a name.
10:09
<@McMartin>
Which opens with you as an evil alien overlord getting pwnt by the titular heroes (who are the PCs, really), and it allows you both to LAUGH MANIACALLY and attempt in vain to DESTROY THE PUNY EARTHLING
10:10 * McMartin needs to find an older or more general terp for it, because Zoom and FrobTADS both seem to not like it.
10:10
<@McMartin>
It's also notable for being one of the few classic T3 games not written by Eric Eve.
10:10
<@McMartin>
T2 has a long and storied history, since it was around at the same time Infocom was; it was marketed as a game engine that people used to write shareware with and such.
10:11
< Vornicus>
I take it Inform is the king of this stuff, nowadays?
10:11
<@McMartin>
Inform didn't become stable enough to actually do its job right until the very late 90s.
10:12
<@McMartin>
Inform's had a slight edge over TADS for some years now, in all their various forms, but T3 only just recently got out of beta and I7 is still in it.
10:12
<@McMartin>
In terms of quantity of work produced, Adrift wins, but the Adrift forums are widely considered to be the ff.net of IF.
10:12
< Vornicus>
pff
10:13 * McMartin is part of the snobbish literary tradition here, but generally buys into this.
10:13
<@McMartin>
I predicted I7 would collect a similar number of enthusiastic, utterly talentless n00bs, but it doesn't seem to have, compared to the tripe that shows up even just with I6.
10:14
<@McMartin>
The last two comps have had a lot of really good writing, and last year's was *almost* entirely clear of utter illiteracy.
10:14
<@McMartin>
Except for the one T3 game. My God, that was horrible.
10:14
< Vornicus>
Grunk was utterly illiterate. Fortunately, his writer is not.
10:14
<@Reiver>
Grunk thus doesn't quite count~
10:14
<@McMartin>
Yeah, that wasn't what I meant.
10:15
<@McMartin>
I meant the the ones that start with stuff like "legends tell, of a grate egyption warriar." type.
10:15
<@McMartin>
Complete with lowercase l.
10:15
< Vornicus>
Heh.
10:15
< Vornicus>
And then of course there's what'shisname.
10:15
<@McMartin>
Yeah. That was 2004.
10:15
<@McMartin>
Panks doesn't count either.
10:16
<@McMartin>
If you aren't bothering with sentences, you get a pass for tape-drive 16K days.
10:16
<@McMartin>
(For this done to cunning effect, I heartily recommend J. Robinson Wheeler's "ASCII and the Argonauts")
10:16
<@McMartin>
(I'M IN A PLAZA IN ANCIENT GREECE)
10:16
<@McMartin>
(*** OH NO I'M DEAD ***)
10:17
< Vornicus>
...ASCII and the Argonauts.
10:17
<@McMartin>
First SpeedIF game to win a Xyzzy.
10:18
<@McMartin>
Which it won for Best Use of Medium.
10:18
< Vornicus>
I think I need to check this one out.
10:18
<@McMartin>
Despite never being more specific than the lines I gave above, it manages an incredibly intricate puzzle structure.
10:18
<@McMartin>
http://www.ifwiki.org/index.php/Speed-IF_Argonaut
10:18
<@McMartin>
... which doesn't link to the downloads.
10:19 * Vornicus gets out Zoom, and asks for it.
10:19
<@McMartin>
The whole SpeedIF was pretty good.
10:19 * McMartin also recommends The Invisible Argonaut, and jasonfindsfleece.
10:19
<@McMartin>
(You found fleece! Way to go, Jason!)
10:19
<@McMartin>
jasonfindsfleece being, of course, a hack of the famous robotfindskitten
10:19
< Vornicus>
Hrm. Zoom can't install it automatically, apparently.
10:20
<@McMartin>
http://www.ifwiki.org/index.php/The_Invisible_Argonaut
10:20 * Vornicus got that impression first from the name, and then from your comment.
10:20
<@McMartin>
Yeah, SpeedIFs come in zip packages, which Zoom won't understand.
10:20
<@McMartin>
http://mirror.ifarchive.org/if-archive/games/mini-comps/speedif/SpeedIF_Argonaut .zip
10:20
<@McMartin>
GREAT GLAUCUS
10:21
<@McMartin>
The Invisible Argonaut is what you get when someone with a Classics background decides they want to do an Adam West Batman fight.
10:24
< Vornicus>
>x sign
10:24
< Vornicus>
SIGN READS: MAGIC WORD "ASCII"
10:24
< Vornicus>
>ascii
10:24
< Vornicus>
I CAN'T DO THAT ... YET
10:25
< Vornicus>
>x bees
10:25
< Vornicus>
FULL OF BEES
10:26
<@Reiver>
...
10:26
<@Reiver>
I must try this game. O.o
10:26
<@AnnoDomini>
Is it just me, or is this rightfully hilarious?
10:26
< Vornicus>
It's pretty damn silly.
10:27
< Vornicus>
ooh, a treasure drop, even.
10:27
< Vornicus>
That would explain it.
10:27
< Vornicus>
All the various treasures are VERY SOMETHING
10:27
< Vornicus>
the silk sail? VERY LUXURIOUS!
10:30 * Vornicus ... is kinda stuck.
10:34
< Vornicus>
The oracle is unhelpful.
10:36
< Vornicus>
okay. Bowl, wine, armor, honey, sail... there's two other treasures. I can get the armor and the sail.
10:37
< Vornicus>
I can't take the newt because it's slippery, I can't get the wine or the bowl because there's a dog, and I can't get the honey because there's bees.
10:37
< Vornicus>
And it's 5:30 in the morning, and I should be sleeping.
10:52 Vornicus is now known as Vornicus-Latens
11:15
<@McMartin>
There are treasures beyond the island.
11:15
<@McMartin>
There's also at least one area you haven't been in, or haven't triggered the appropriate event in.
11:16
<@McMartin>
But it is 3:17 in the morning, so I should probably *also* sleep.
12:13
<@AnnoDomini>
What I like about Settlers II is that after the expansion phase, you can just go do something else for a few hours while your nation rises in military power.
12:15
< Vornicus-Latens>
Heh.
12:38
<@EvilDarkLord>
Problem with a pretty basic qsort operation, code at http://rafb.net/p/KY0V2z29.html . I suspect that I'm doing something wrong when throwing things at qsort, since the strings I get to compare are garbled.
12:41
<@EvilDarkLord>
The comparison sorts in the given order, depending on which characters are given as input.
12:44
<@EvilDarkLord>
Help appreciated, if someone can see what I'm doing wrong.
12:47
< Vornicus-Latens>
I don't know what an ExamInfo is, but if you're reading binary data from a string, remember endianness.
12:47
< Vornicus-Latens>
And padding.
12:48
<@AnnoDomini>
Yay! For the first time ever, I've passed mission IV. Was a bastard, too, with a definite lack of iron close at hand.
12:50
<@EvilDarkLord>
Vornicus-Latens: ExamInfo is defined in the comment at the top of the file.
12:51
< Vornicus-Latens>
...oh, hell, you're gonna hate this.
12:51
<@EvilDarkLord>
A struct containing three strings, which I checked in exam_info_sort previously and looked good at the time.
12:52
< Vornicus-Latens>
...actually never mind, that still works, because you're throwing it around as a string below, too.
12:53
< Vornicus-Latens>
rather, as an examinfo
12:53
< Vornicus-Latens>
if you were throwing it around as a string before, you'd be in trouble.
12:56
<@EvilDarkLord>
Hrm. The input for exam_info_sort at least should be correct, since this is an assignment and other people have already solved this. And I try to be careful not to do anything stupid with types, gcc is not warning me of anything at the moment.
12:58
<@EvilDarkLord>
(And I have all the --bitch_and_whine options enabled.)
12:58
< Vornicus-Latens>
By garbled, what do you mean? what is it that you're getting?
12:59
<@EvilDarkLord>
cmp1, cmp2 are garbled strings at the time they're passed to strcmp.
12:59
< Vornicus-Latens>
how ware they garbled?
12:59
<@EvilDarkLord>
I'm getting a bunch of unidentified characters, which are shorter than they should be to boot.
12:59
< Vornicus-Latens>
Are they line noise? Smashed together?
12:59
< Vornicus-Latens>
Okay.
12:59
< Vornicus-Latens>
Line noise.
12:59
< Vornicus-Latens>
That means you're getting wild pointers.
13:01 AbuDhabi [AnnoDomini@83.21.50.ns-4024] has joined #Code
13:01 * EvilDarkLord nods. If the cast to ExamInfo pointer is being done correctly, that seems to leave only exam_info_sort as the source of troubles.
13:01 AnnoDomini [AnnoDomini@83.21.49.ns-4142] has quit [Ping Timeout]
13:03
<@EvilDarkLord>
Problem being, of course, that I cannot see where I'm going wrong in that either.
13:07 * Vornicus-Latens tries to figure out what the hell this order thing is.
13:08
< Vornicus-Latens>
oh, globals. Got it.
13:08
< Vornicus-Latens>
ew. :(
13:08
<@EvilDarkLord>
I couldn't think of a saner way to do it =/
13:08
< Vornicus-Latens>
but not much you can do, if you want to use qsort
13:10
<@EvilDarkLord>
It saves me the trouble of debugging my own sort function at this point :)
13:11
< Vornicus-Latens>
Quite.
13:11
< Vornicus-Latens>
...now if you could just get qsort to show you the values it's passing, you'd be good.
13:13
<@EvilDarkLord>
You mean the pointers to ExamInfo:s it's passing to the comparison function?
13:13
< Vornicus-Latens>
Yes.
13:13 * EvilDarkLord goes to print them.
13:17
<@EvilDarkLord>
Okay. First call to comparison function, the pointers have a difference of 4.
13:17
< Vornicus-Latens>
Are they pointers from the examinfo list?
13:19
<@EvilDarkLord>
Looks like the second and third element of it.
13:21
<@EvilDarkLord>
Hm, yes. Array address is 0x804a390, the pointers are 0x804a394 and 0x804a398.
13:21
< Vornicus-Latens>
...oh, hell.
13:21
< Vornicus-Latens>
I know what it's doing.
13:21
<@EvilDarkLord>
Oh, cool. Do share :)
13:21
< Vornicus-Latens>
I think, anyway.
13:22
< Vornicus-Latens>
what it's doing, I think, is... shit, no, I don't know what it's doing.
13:23
< Vornicus-Latens>
I thought maybe it was going examinfo ea_first = {0x804a390, 0x804a394, 0x804a398}
13:24
< Vornicus-Latens>
Can you check the pointers it's passing to strcmp?
13:24
<@EvilDarkLord>
Hmm. Say, is it a bad sign if gdb is not able to step-by-step to the end? Oh yes. Hang on.
13:26
<@EvilDarkLord>
0x804a100, 0x804a148.
13:26
<@EvilDarkLord>
Both line noise.
13:28
< Vornicus-Latens>
Hm.
13:29
< Vornicus-Latens>
Okay, what pointers do you get if you examine the same exam_info by hand?
13:31
<@EvilDarkLord>
0x804a018 for date, 0x804a148 for hall, 0x804a100 for course_code.
13:31
<@EvilDarkLord>
(This is for a, which provides cmp1 for me.)
13:32
<@EvilDarkLord>
(As a side note, gdb is pretty cool.)
13:35
< Vornicus-Latens>
(damn straight it is)
13:39
<@EvilDarkLord>
Oh, current sort order is hall-date-course_code FWIW.
13:43
< Vornicus-Latens>
okay.
13:43
< Vornicus-Latens>
...God I hate pointers.
13:46 AbuDhabi [AnnoDomini@83.21.50.ns-4024] has quit [Ping Timeout]
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13:56 mode/#code [+o AnnoDomini] by ChanServ
13:58
<@EvilDarkLord>
Don't worry too much about it. I can corner someone who won't have to work through irc later in the week. Thanks for the help.
13:58
< Vornicus-Latens>
ok
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17:48 mode/#code [+o AnnoDomini] by ChanServ
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20:27 You're now known as TheWatcher[afk]
21:16
< JaG>
who can i buy bank accounts?
21:17
<@Derakon>
Care to clarify your statement?
21:18
< JaG>
sorry for my fucking english
21:18
<@AnnoDomini>
Use a different online translator? :P
21:19
< JaG>
I want to buy Banks accounts
21:19
<@Derakon>
So...you want us to sell you information on peoples' bank accounts?
21:20
< JaG>
yes :D
21:21
<@Derakon>
Right, thought so. Get out of here.
21:21 JaG was kicked from #code by Derakon [Derakon]
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21:21
< JaG>
xahxhaxhahxhaxhhaxhahxhaxhahhhahhxhaxhahxhahxhaxhahxhahxhaxha
21:21 mode/#code [+b #code!*@*] by Derakon
21:21
<@Derakon>
Er, oops.
21:21
<@Derakon>
My syntax is rusty.
21:21
< JaG>
you sux
21:21 mode/#code [-b #code!*@*] by Derakon
21:21 mode/#code [+b #code!*@*] by Derakon
21:21 mode/#code [-b #code!*@*] by Derakon
21:21 * Derakon sighs.
21:22
< JaG>
man can you to set bans?
21:22 mode/#code [+b *!*@Nightstar-19714.vlan-139-game-228.comnet.bg] by AnnoDomini
21:22 JaG was kicked from #Code by AnnoDomini [Patience is a virtue.]
21:22
<@Derakon>
Thank you.
21:22
<@Derakon>
I've clearly forgotten the proper syntax.
21:22
<@AnnoDomini>
No problem. :)
21:22 * AnnoDomini has it in the context menu, under 'Banjolnir'.
21:22
<@Derakon>
Heh.
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22:34 Vornotron is now known as Vornicus
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22:35 NSGuest-5079 is now known as Vornicus
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22:40 * Reltzik heard this was a channel for talking about programming?
22:40
<@Derakon>
We like to think so.
22:40 * Reltzik wavies at some familiar faces.
22:42
< Reltzik>
I'm tackling a bit of a problem, and I'm thinking that a logic-programming language might be the answer, IF it allows new rules to carve out exceptions to existing rules. Anyone know of a language like that?
22:43
<@Derakon>
I'm not really familiar with such languages myself, sorry.
22:44
< Reltzik>
Mm. Well, I'll lurk a bit and see if anyone knows.
22:50
<@McMartin>
Heh. Inform 7 does, but it's special purpose.
22:52 * Reltzik wikipedias that.
22:52
<@Derakon>
Inform 7 is used for making IF games.
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23:06 * Reltzik readreadreads.
23:06
< Reltzik>
Yeah, it's a bit specific.
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23:20 * Reltzik wonders whether he should design and create an entirely new language for this. The prospect should not be filling him with this level of unholy glee.
23:25
< Vornicus>
In general, the answer is No.
23:28
< Vornicus>
That said, you can apply, sort of, axiomatic-generative methods in regular languages; make a list of your axioms, try them one at a time.
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23:38
< Reltzik>
But if I were to program this in an existing language, I'd have to create so many features plus an engine that I might as well make it an interpretted language.
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23:45
<@ToxicFrog>
Writing a good language is very very hard.
23:45
<@ToxicFrog>
What, exactly, is the problem you're trying to solve?
23:45 * Reltzik never said anything about writing a GOOD language. He's not THAT arrogant... quite.
23:47
< Reltzik>
Well, I'm definitely overthinking/overengineering all of this.
23:47
< Reltzik>
It started as trying to create an assistant for DnD rules -- everything from charsheet generators to mapping to tracking which squares of the map are lit.
23:48
< Reltzik>
Anyhow, I've been going through the rules with a fine-tooth comb, and I've been saying to myself, "These rules are presented as, well, rules. And specific exceptions to general rules. That's what the problem's shaped like."
23:49
< Vornicus>
I would not write D&D in an inference engine.
23:49
< Reltzik>
Well, yes, but that's because you're sane. Or at least saner.
23:51
<@AnnoDomini>
Be mindful that DnD rules aren't self-consistent.
23:51
< Reltzik>
But what's really urging me on is the fact that I want to be able to upgrade it later to add in supplements.
23:52 * Reltzik knows that too. There are also undefined elements, and things that the DM's supposed to rule on/make up/override.
23:54
< Reltzik>
Which would mean that the program has to PROMPT the DM for a ruling.
23:57
< Reltzik>
In essense, the DM would have to be able to create, delete, and edit rules (at least within a limited, though persistent, scope). That's halfway to its own language right there.
--- Log closed Sun Feb 17 00:00:10 2008
code logs -> 2008 -> Sat, 16 Feb 2008< code.20080215.log - code.20080217.log >
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