| --- Log opened Thu Feb 07 00:00:06 2008 |
| 00:49 | < MyCatVerbs> | jerith: there's a #math? |
| 00:50 | < MyCatVerbs> | jerith: bah humbug. There's no one in there who isn't already in here, too. |
| 01:19 | <@Reiver> | It was used as a sidechannel for mathematical discussions. |
| 01:28 | < MyCatVerbs> | ike this channel's active enough to be significantly disrupted by those. |
| 01:28 | < MyCatVerbs> | Gah, dammit. |
| 01:28 | < MyCatVerbs> | Doesn't seem like this channel's active enough to be significantly disrupted by those. |
| 01:28 | | * McMartin bends MacPorts to his will. |
| 01:29 | < MyCatVerbs> | Besides which, in the long run, programming is just (isomorphic too) convoluted mathematics anyway. Really, the discussions from here ought to be over there, instead. ;) |
| 01:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | MyCatVerbs: it has been occaisonally. |
| 01:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | Busy enough, that is. |
| 01:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | A conversation fork()s. |
| 01:32 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: I'm surprised. |
| 01:32 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: I'd've never expected them to do more than clone(2) with most of the bits turned off. |
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| 02:01 | <@McMartin> | java.util.Calendar includes a constant for the thirteenth month of the year, Undecimber. |
| 02:01 | <@Vornicus> | Useful in lunar calendars. |
| 02:01 | <@McMartin> | Yup. |
| 02:02 | <@McMartin> | I mainly note this because "Undecimber" is a pretty awesome name. |
| 02:02 | <@McMartin> | It's, like, Antictober. |
| 02:07 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 02:21 | <@Reiver> | They should have called it Octember. ¬¬ |
| 02:24 | <@McMartin> | "Undecimber" is not, actually, "not December". It's from Undecim, "eleven", as Sept/Oct/Nov/December are 7-10. |
| 02:25 | | * McMartin does not offhand recall which months were added in the middle to bump the month count to 12. |
| 02:25 | <@McMartin> | Probaby July and August, though. |
| 02:25 | <@McMartin> | *Probably |
| 02:25 | <@Derakon> | Yeah. |
| 02:25 | <@Derakon> | Roman emperors were the last to add months, IIRC. |
| 02:25 | <@McMartin> | Which they named after themselves! |
| 02:26 | <@Derakon> | Naturally. |
| 02:26 | <@McMartin> | A feat not to be duplicated until late-20th Century Turkmenistan. |
| 02:26 | <@McMartin> | Of course, that guy also renamed bread after his mom. |
| 02:27 | <@Vornicus> | |
| 02:28 | <@McMartin> | If you are not familiar with the late "Turkmenbashi" ("Father of all Turkmen" -- who's your daddy, indeed), it is a fascinating, if hilarious and depressing, read. |
| 02:29 | <@McMartin> | Closed all hospitals outside of the capital so that he could build an enormous golden statue of himself, etc. |
| 02:29 | <@Derakon> | Yow. |
| 02:29 | <@McMartin> | "If people get sick they can just come here" |
| 02:29 | <@McMartin> | Three guesses as to how good the transportation infrastructure was. |
| 02:36 | <@McMartin> | Hmm |
| 02:37 | <@McMartin> | Hey, Mac people. Is there a standard keyboard accelerator for "previous/next word"? |
| 02:37 | <@McMartin> | Comparable to C-Left/Right Arrow in Unix? |
| 02:38 | <@Derakon> | I don't know of one offhand, but I've not looked. |
| 02:38 | | * McMartin starts jamming keys |
| 02:38 | < C_tiger> | Command left/right arrow? |
| 02:38 | <@McMartin> | OK, Command left/right is beginning/end of line. |
| 02:39 | <@McMartin> | Option left/right does what I want. |
| 02:39 | < C_tiger> | Cool. |
| 02:39 | <@McMartin> | C-left/right shifts virtual desktops. >_< |
| 02:39 | <@Derakon> | Heh. |
| 02:39 | <@McMartin> | Command Up/Down is beginning/end of document. |
| 02:39 | <@Derakon> | Ahh, yes, which I wouldn't have on this computer because it's running 10.4. |
| 02:40 | <@McMartin> | Option up/down doesn't do anything. |
| 02:51 | <@Reiver> | McM: Okay, well, that's kinda cool. >.> |
| 02:52 | <@Reiver> | Still, octember! |
| 03:01 | | * McMartin sucks the very essence of power from his lab laptop, to the point where the batteries may be properly stored. |
| 03:02 | <@Reiver> | ...what type of battery is it? |
| 03:02 | <@McMartin> | Standard laptop battery. |
| 03:03 | <@McMartin> | You're supposed to store them at 25-50% charge. |
| 03:03 | <@Reiver> | Aha, Li-ion. |
| 03:23 | <@McMartin> | Wow. |
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| 03:23 | | * McMartin does some basic XML parsing in Java. |
| 03:23 | <@McMartin> | That was actually significantly less painful than I feared. |
| 03:23 | <@Derakon> | Heh. |
| 03:24 | <@Derakon> | The impression I've gotten is that as long as you don't roll your own parser, XML is not made of kitten hearts. |
| 03:24 | <@McMartin> | Well |
| 03:24 | <@McMartin> | Getting the parser in place required one. |
| 03:24 | <@McMartin> | In fact, most of the code here involves handling the various exceptions it can throw. |
| 03:24 | <@McMartin> | And suppose I want to instantiate a parser. |
| 03:25 | <@McMartin> | We can't have parser = new XMLParser(), oh no. |
| 03:25 | <@McMartin> | DocumentBuilder db = DocumentBuilderFactory.newInstance().newDocumentBuilder(); Element doc = db.parse (new File (args[0])).getDocumentElement(); |
| 03:25 | <@McMartin> | (package names elided) |
| 03:25 | | * Derakon facepalms. |
| 03:26 | <@McMartin> | Note that not only do the parsers have a factory, it's in a different class |
| 03:26 | <@McMartin> | And that factory class *itself* is a factory. |
| 03:26 | <@McMartin> | I'm not sure if there are enough levels of indirection here! |
| 03:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | this looks like a classic case of someone confusing indirection with abstraction~ |
| 03:27 | <@McMartin> | http://www.stanford.edu/~mcmartin/misc/TestXML.java |
| 03:28 | <@McMartin> | Reads an arbitrary XML file, prints out a structured list of the tag structure. |
| 03:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | So, yeah. While in theory XML is ok as long as you don't need to write the parser and performance isn't critical, in practice most of the parsers are made of spiders, too. |
| 03:28 | <@McMartin> | "process" is the part that does the actual work. |
| 03:28 | | * McMartin is writing a Java API for iFiction. |
| 03:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | And the ones that aren't, in my experience, don't work properly out of the box either. |
| 03:29 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, javax.xml appears to be org.xml.sax wrapped about six times. |
| 03:29 | <@McMartin> | And org.w3c.dom wraps the real DOM spec two or three times. |
| 03:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | ;.; |
| 03:30 | <@McMartin> | Including a nice "can we just pretend that all child text nodes are one big text node, thanks" routine, which I will be using very heavily in the real application. |
| 03:30 | <@McMartin> | Hey, wrappers are all good. |
| 03:30 | <@Derakon> | Heh. |
| 03:30 | | * McMartin is entirely in favor of Lack Of Bullshit. |
| 03:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | Wrappers are good as long as they do, in fact, cut down on the bullshit. |
| 03:30 | <@McMartin> | My test on "getElementType" there could have in fact been "if (n instanceof Element)" |
| 03:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | Indirection for indirection's sake, on the other hand, is pain./ |
| 03:30 | <@McMartin> | However, I was writing this essentially call for call from python's minidom library, which does *not* properly abstract elements and text nodes. |
| 03:31 | <@McMartin> | Er. the n.getNodeType test, rather. |
| 03:31 | <@McMartin> | Can be an instanceof. |
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| 03:32 | | * McMartin reuploads that version. |
| 03:33 | <@Vornicus> | what's being reuploaded? |
| 03:33 | <@McMartin> | http://www.stanford.edu/~mcmartin/misc/TestXML.java |
| 03:33 | <@McMartin> | Reads an arbitrary XML file, prints out a structured list of the tag structure. |
| 03:34 | <@McMartin> | process() is what does the real work. |
| 03:35 | <@Vornicus> | aha |
| 03:35 | <@McMartin> | This is, in fact, once you build the parser, cleaner than python's DOM libraries. So I am happy. |
| 03:47 | | * McMartin updates it again so that it will print out values for tags that <tag>look like this</tag>, heads to dinner. |
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| 09:39 | | * McMartin mindlessly writes a lot of Java code. |
| 09:39 | <@McMartin> | This will come in handy once I'm conscious and sharp. |
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| 10:55 | <@gnolam> | McMartin: oh? |
| 10:55 | <@gnolam> | http://limerickdb.com/?291 |
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| 11:16 | <@McMartin> | gnolam: I'm writing up a bunch of boilerplate for a great many beans classes. I'll be able to use them as fodder for a grand structured-data reifier once I'm more awake. |
| 11:16 | <@McMartin> | That said, the fact that I'm defining a class named ElementReifier<T> probably itself earns me a few years in Purgatory. |
| 11:17 | <@TheWatcher> | Ahahha |
| 11:18 | | * McMartin is working on porting the Blorple core over to Java and Doing It Right this time, since the Python version was more than a little bit half-assed. |
| 11:20 | | * TheWatcher is always vaguely tempted to point out that people can't be making real reification code unless they're programming a UC, but notes this is slightly silly |
| 11:20 | <@Reiver> | reifier? |
| 11:20 | <@Reiver> | I keep misreading that as 'refrier'. |
| 11:20 | <@Reiver> | Partly I suspect because it involves beans. >.> |
| 11:21 | <@McMartin> | OK, so, buzzword explication time. |
| 11:21 | <@McMartin> | "beans" is a standard Java naming convention that lets various tools automatically do interface generation right. |
| 11:21 | <@McMartin> | "To reify" means "to turn into a thing", from Latin "res". |
| 11:22 | | * McMartin directs you to Pratchett's High Energy Magic researchers, who named the fundamental building blocks of matter and magic "resons". Which is to say, "thingies". |
| 11:22 | <@McMartin> | In OO design *specifically*, to reify a concept means to define a class that represents it, using it as part of the software architecture. |
| 11:23 | <@McMartin> | TW is bitching that no actual physical objects result. I suspect dwarfish ancestry. |
| 11:23 | <@TheWatcher> | :P |
| 11:23 | <@Reiver> | *snerk* |
| 11:23 | <@Reiver> | Okay, works. |
| 11:23 | <@TheWatcher> | That's explain the occasional scottish accent, too ¬¬ |
| 11:24 | | * Reiver has one of those! |
| 11:24 | <@McMartin> | Kind of tall, though. |
| 11:24 | <@McMartin> | Do you also have a Plot-Significant Birthmark and a Frickin' Huge Sword? |
| 11:24 | | * Reiver can blame it on either on lineage, or probably more accurately his Great Aunt Rhetha. |
| 11:25 | <@TheWatcher> | McM: Maaaaybe ¬¬ |
| 11:25 | | * McMartin apparently had his word order slightly affected by virtue of being half-German on both sides. |
| 11:26 | <@McMartin> | As if the the fact that rest of you piddling Anglophones have trouble with parsing stacks more than three or four deep should be a difficulty to me! |
| 11:26 | <@McMartin> | I refute you MIT ZIENCE. |
| 11:26 | <@McMartin> | Well, no. I'm on the West Coast. |
| 11:26 | | * TheWatcher sneeerrks |
| 11:26 | <@gnolam> | Only if the verb had come last. |
| 11:26 | <@McMartin> | I refute you Stanford ZIENCE. |
| 11:27 | <@McMartin> | Only if I were using the past tense! |
| 11:27 | <@McMartin> | Or the future, I guess. |
| 11:27 | <@gnolam> | Or any modal verb. |
| 11:27 | | * McMartin wird alles mit Wissenschaft zerst?ren. |
| 11:27 | | * gnolam applauds. |
| 11:27 | <@McMartin> | (It's kind of sad how MIT WISSENSCHAFT just does not have the proper ring to it.) |
| 11:28 | <@McMartin> | (on the other hand, "knowsmanship" should totally be an English word.) |
| 11:29 | <@TheWatcher> | Well, all we need to do is use it regularly, and it will be eventually ¬¬ |
| 11:29 | <@gnolam> | Definitely. And rename all scientists "knowsmanshippers". |
| 11:29 | <@McMartin> | Well |
| 11:29 | <@McMartin> | Knowsmanship really seems like it should be more general than mere science. |
| 11:29 | <@McMartin> | I honestly think of science as more finding-outs-man-ship. |
| 11:30 | <@gnolam> | Arr, knowsmanshipper! Biased sample on the port bow! |
| 11:31 | <@TheWatcher> | Herauszufindenschaft? ¬¬ |
| 11:32 | <@McMartin> | Sounds good. |
| 11:32 | | * TheWatcher giggles |
| 11:32 | <@McMartin> | If we keep this up the other ops will demonstrate Ausgeflingenschaft. >_> |
| 11:32 | <@TheWatcher> | HAhahaha |
| 11:33 | <@McMartin> | (Language pedantry note: "ausgeflingen" is not actually a proper German word, though I believe "geflunkt aus" would be a proper declension of "ausflingen".) |
| 11:33 | <@McMartin> | ... conjugation, not declension. |
| 11:33 | <@McMartin> | Silly non-English Indo-European langauges. |
| 11:34 | | * Reiver demands nothing but a translation for that one. ¬¬ |
| 11:34 | <@McMartin> | "We're going to get kicked if we keep this up." |
| 11:34 | <@McMartin> | ausflingen being, roughly "to out-fling." |
| 11:34 | <@McMartin> | ... er. |
| 11:34 | <@McMartin> | To fling out. |
| 11:34 | <@McMartin> | As opposed to flinging better than some rival, which is what outflinging would be in English. |
| 11:35 | <@McMartin> | ge is, IIRC, a modifier that semi-randomly shows up in modal verbs. |
| 11:37 | <@McMartin> | Google translate doesn't think "ausflingen" is a word in German, but it also appears to not think that "fling" is a word in *English*. |
| 11:37 | <@McMartin> | And I don't have a proper German dictionary here. |
| 11:37 | <@Reiver> | ...pfff |
| 11:38 | <@McMartin> | (That said, "to throw out" would normally be "auswerfen") |
| 11:38 | <@McMartin> | (which Google Translate renders as "to eject", but so it goes) |
| 11:38 | <@Reiver> | Naaah. I hereby decree this to be far too hilarious for that. And besides, from what I understand German is kinda like a programming language to start with. <g> |
| 11:38 | <@gnolam> | Assuming the existence of "ausgeflingen", I assume the perfect tense would be "ausgeflungen" (and I think imperfect would be "geflang aus"). But the 'ge' shouldn't really be there. ;-) |
| 11:39 | <@McMartin> | Hmm. |
| 11:39 | <@TheWatcher> | Reiv: a programming language that lets you do hideous, hideous things with preprocessor macros. |
| 11:39 | <@McMartin> | You're right about flang aus. |
| 11:40 | <@McMartin> | I thought some other verb went -ingen, -ang, -unkt, but it's been too long. |
| 11:40 | <@gnolam> | I'm thinking along the lines of "klingen, klang, geklungt". |
| 11:40 | <@gnolam> | *geklungen |
| 11:40 | | * gnolam slaps himself. |
| 11:41 | | * McMartin nods |
| 11:41 | | * McMartin notes in passing that German onomotopoeias are awesome. |
| 11:41 | <@McMartin> | That being one of them. |
| 11:41 | <@McMartin> | Also gets points for "to taste" in the sense of "has a flavor" being onomotopoeietic. |
| 11:42 | <@McMartin> | schmecken! |
| 11:42 | <@McMartin> | *schmeckt schmeckt schmeckt* |
| 11:43 | <@gnolam> | As awesome as compound nouns like Mehrzweckkampfflugzeugradarlenkwaffe? |
| 11:43 | | * McMartin attempts to sort that one out. |
| 11:43 | <@McMartin> | More ??? fighting flying ??? radar line warriors? |
| 11:44 | <@McMartin> | flugzeug is a compound in its own right, though, IIRC. |
| 11:44 | <@McMartin> | Then there was NTT's suggestion for Demonic Doomtroopers in German |
| 11:45 | <@gnolam> | It translates literally to something like "multi-role fighter radar guided weapon". |
| 11:45 | <@McMartin> | Tiefsth?llensturmangriffkerntruppen. |
| 11:46 | <@McMartin> | Aha. |
| 11:46 | | * McMartin feeds pieces of it into Google Translate |
| 11:47 | <@gnolam> | Of course, I consider any language that can't make arbitrarily long nouns deficient. ^-^ |
| 11:47 | <@McMartin> | "More purpose fighting-flying-stuff radar-drawn weapon" |
| 11:47 | <@McMartin> | fighting-flying-stuff being "fighter", clearly. And flugzeug alone being "airplane". |
| 11:48 | <@McMartin> | It does eventually get unwieldy. I think I approve of our mugging Greek and Latin for our compounds. |
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| --- Log closed Thu Feb 07 23:29:12 2008 |
| --- Log opened Thu Feb 07 23:29:19 2008 |
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| --- Log closed Fri Feb 08 00:00:12 2008 |