--- Log opened Tue Jan 22 00:00:19 2008 |
00:46 | | gnolam [lenin@85.8.5.ns-20483] has quit [Quit: Z?] |
02:40 | < McMartin> | OK, TeXshop gets it done. |
02:55 | < McMartin> | Hmm, OK, silly Mac question. How do I do the equivalent of setting File Associations? |
02:55 | < McMartin> | I'd like .txt files to map to TextWrangler instead of TextEdit. |
03:57 | <@Vornicus> | Select file; cmd-I for Get Info; unfold Open With; change from the pulldown; press Change All |
04:00 | <@Vornicus> | Note that some text files - especially those in .dmgs and .sits that you have downloaded - will still open in TextEdit for some unknown reason. |
04:25 | < McMartin> | k |
04:25 | < McMartin> | Also, for the record: Stacks are awesome |
04:25 | <@Vornicus> | What brings this one on? |
04:26 | <@Vornicus> | Also, stacks like... stacks, or Hypercard Stacks? |
04:26 | < McMartin> | The Leopard thing where you can jam entire directories into the Dock and have them fan out on command. |
04:26 | <@Vornicus> | also what the hell kind of word is "stack"? |
04:26 | <@Vornicus> | Oh. |
04:26 | | * Vornicus does not have Leopard, so cannot comment. |
04:26 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...why is that a stack? |
04:27 | < McMartin> | I guess because it's a stack of files you flip through? |
04:27 | < McMartin> | Don't look at me, man, I didn't name it. |
04:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | And why don't you have Leopard? |
04:27 | < McMartin> | Doesn't Leopard cost money? |
04:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...isn't Leopard a minor version increment? |
04:28 | < McMartin> | I thought only micro version increments were free. |
04:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | ++failbiscuits, then. |
04:29 | < McMartin> | Leopard is 10.5 |
04:29 | < McMartin> | So, yeah, that's a minor version increment, but |
04:30 | < McMartin> | In any event, this adds into the Dock the major thing I use the Start Menu for that the Dock doesn't do right, so win |
04:32 | < McMartin> | And, indeed, does it *better* as I do not need to keep Start Menu and Program Files synched. |
04:35 | <@Vornicus> | It should be pointed out that an OS X "minor version" is approximately similar in scope and temporal spacing as pre-OSX major versions |
04:36 | | * McMartin had gathered this. |
04:36 | <@Vornicus> | I think TF has not. |
04:36 | < McMartin> | I wish they didn't just randomly assign kitties to them though |
04:36 | <@Vornicus> | It's like Windows 95 - 98 - me - 2000 - xp, approximately, in scale |
04:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
04:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | So OS 10.5 is actually OSX 5, not OSX 1 release 5. |
04:37 | <@Vornicus> | Right |
04:37 | < McMartin> | Indeed. |
04:37 | <@Vornicus> | Which makes the original OSX OSX 0 |
04:37 | <@Vornicus> | :P |
04:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
04:37 | < McMartin> | That sounds about right, actually~ |
04:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | In much the same way HL2 is HL2 ep 0. |
04:38 | <@Vornicus> | Yeah, the original OSX was not, in any particular sense, any good. |
04:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | Still an improvement over OS9~ |
04:38 | <@Vornicus> | I mean, it was /leaps and bounds/ better than the legacy stuff in OS9, but that's not saying much |
04:38 | < McMartin> | Well, if the alternative was OS 9, with its lack of memory protection and its lack of pre-emptive multitasking... |
04:38 | < McMartin> | I note that those two features are still listed in the Yay Leopard page. |
04:38 | < McMartin> | "Uh, guys? Welcome to 1993?" |
04:38 | <@Vornicus> | Yeah |
04:38 | <@Vornicus> | I know people with old-school macs. |
04:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | Didn't UNIX have those pre-1993? |
04:39 | <@Vornicus> | Hell, I know one /business/ that still runs on OS 7 and a 68k mac. |
04:39 | < McMartin> | UQM coredev officially No Longer Cares About them. |
04:39 | < McMartin> | TF: Yes, but UNIX wasn't really a consumer OS until 1993 |
04:39 | < McMartin> | Or thereabouts. |
04:39 | < McMartin> | Whenever Linux 2.0 hit. |
04:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | It was for some of us, but ok, granted. |
04:40 | < McMartin> | You are not a "consumer" in this sense~ |
04:40 | <@Vornicus> | August 25, 1993 was the day Linus announced that he was working on it. |
04:40 | < McMartin> | Yes, I ran Yggdrassil too. |
04:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yggdrassil? |
04:40 | | * Vornicus shares his birthday with Regis Philbin, ivan the Terrible, Linux, and Sluggy Freelance. |
04:40 | < McMartin> | The 1.2 CD/BBS-distributed version. |
04:41 | <@Vornicus> | or was it 1991 |
04:41 | < McMartin> | I'm trying to find a history. |
04:41 | < McMartin> | ... |
04:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. I didn't use Linux until...2.2 or so? |
04:41 | < McMartin> | OK, why is GNOME randomly playing mp3s in my Desktop |
04:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: kernel.org has all the versions archived, with timestamps. |
04:42 | | * Vornicus got into Linux in April 2002. |
04:42 | | * McMartin first used one in '94 or so. |
04:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | 2.1 or 2.2 is about right for when we started using it. |
04:42 | | * Vornicus then stopped using it in summer 2002. |
04:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which is around 99/00. |
04:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | Possibly a bit earlier, which would make it 2.1. |
04:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | Up until then it was various flavours of actual UNIX; we missed all the pre-2.x linux stuff. |
04:43 | < McMartin> | Linux 2.0 was 1996. |
04:43 | < McMartin> | So fine. "Welcome to 1996." |
04:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | In 96 we were running SCO OpenServer 4, IIRC. |
04:44 | < McMartin> | Aaactually |
04:44 | < McMartin> | If Linux 2.0 was 1996 then Windows 95 beats it to the consumer |
04:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | 95 didn't have memory protection, though. |
04:44 | < McMartin> | True |
04:44 | < McMartin> | It did have pre-emptive MT though. |
04:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
04:45 | < McMartin> | I refuse to call NT "consumer" until Win2K, which was the first point Win32 had memory protection |
04:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | Then Linux a year later, and UNIX and I believe most (?all) serious mainframe OSes Went There and Did That much earlier. |
04:46 | < McMartin> | ... and which I think still ends up predating OSX |
04:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | OSX Server 1.0 predates win2k by a year. |
04:47 | < McMartin> | And consumer edition comes a year after it. |
04:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | However, all other OSX releases, including Public Beta 1 and OS 10.0, postdate it. |
04:47 | < McMartin> | We'll give memory protection a bye |
04:47 | < McMartin> | Darwin itself was 99. |
04:48 | < McMartin> | Especially since Win9x's lack of memory protection was so bad it gets negative points. |
04:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | You might, I won't~ |
04:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well, yes. |
04:48 | <@Vornicus> | Funny thing is, the cooperative multitasking and stuff was seen as a boon for the kinds of folks who were using it - artists, video editors... |
04:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | hi2u kernel mapped into globally read/write memory |
04:48 | < McMartin> | At least MacOS kept the kernel in ROM~ |
04:49 | <@Vornicus> | who needed the speed and real-time power it gave. |
04:49 | < McMartin> | Yeah, but a spell-checker will do better with it too |
04:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah, but you can get that behaviour on a preempting OS using stuff like nice, too, if you really need it. |
04:49 | < McMartin> | It's Just That Awesome, even given how ridiculously difficult it is to make it go. |
04:50 | < McMartin> | And yeah, well, we don't need to refight the coop/preemp battle. It's been over for years. |
04:50 | < McMartin> | I'm going to call coop defenders as having a slightly less ridiculous variant of Amiga Persecution Syndrome. |
04:51 | < McMartin> | In which 68030 was equivalent in productive power to a Pentium Pro, honest, M$ and Int$l are just ripping j00 off, for realz j0 |
04:51 | <@Vornicus> | At the time though it was an OMG LEAVING FOREVAH moment |
04:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | ? |
04:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | What was, the move to preemptive threading in OSX? |
04:52 | <@Vornicus> | Yes. |
04:52 | < McMartin> | Totally APS. |
04:52 | < McMartin> | Especially since IIRC OS9 had limited pre-emption with interrupts. |
04:52 | < McMartin> | Since everything did, including the Atari 800. |
04:52 | <@Vornicus> | Yes. |
04:52 | <@Vornicus> | THough programs could turn it off. |
04:52 | < McMartin> | NMIs by definition can't be~ |
04:53 | <@Vornicus> | Well, yes, but you could turn off all the system events. |
04:53 | < McMartin> | Oh, right. |
04:53 | < McMartin> | That's why your renderer hung whenever you selected a menu. |
04:53 | < McMartin> | (OMG MANDATORY FEATURE) |
04:54 | <@Vornicus> | there were some real wtfs there - given certain settings you could hang /an entire network/ by selecting a menu. |
04:54 | < McMartin> | Oh, God, AppleTalk |
04:54 | < McMartin> | "I'm a printer! I'm a printer! Are you a printer? I'm a printer!" |
04:55 | <@Vornicus> | *snrk* |
04:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | Pffft |
04:55 | <@Vornicus> | Yeah. |
04:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: as far as OSX goes: $ sudo nice -40 photshop or whatever. Bing! |
04:55 | < McMartin> | One of my labmates has a whole routine for this, including hand gestures. I cannot replicate it IRL, much less IIRC, but. |
04:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | I can imagine how it goes. |
04:55 | <@Vornicus> | Heeeeee |
04:55 | <@Vornicus> | The Internets demands to see this. |
04:55 | <@Vornicus> | Or, at least, I do. |
04:56 | < McMartin> | It may be improved by adding in Portal Sentry Gun voices, actually. |
04:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | I was already imagining it with GitS Tachikoma Voices, actually. |
04:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which are very similar. |
04:56 | <@Vornicus> | Elmyra. |
04:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | And tend to have a rather hyperactive personality that fits the subject matter well. |
04:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | The Portal turrets are more melancholy and resigned. |
04:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | Whereas Tachikomas tend to be bubbly and cheerful even after their bodies have been shredded by a rogue spidertank. |
05:00 | < ReivZzz> | Tachikomas? |
05:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachikoma |
05:00 | < McMartin> | Anyway, to be fair |
05:01 | < McMartin> | Memory protection was an OMG NEVAR for the Windows users. |
05:01 | < McMartin> | For the very good reason that it actually did break 90+% of the applications they were relying on. |
05:01 | < McMartin> | The users came around about one development cycle after the developers did. |
05:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | I suspect that it would have been possible to implement protected-memory win95 while running legacy DOS programs in their own shared memory space. |
05:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | However, I haven't actually tried this. |
05:04 | < McMartin> | Well |
05:04 | < McMartin> | DOS4GW has given you single-tasking protected memory on DOS since before Windows 3.1 |
05:05 | < McMartin> | But the dev had to use it. |
05:05 | < McMartin> | I see no reason something similar couldn't have existed for MacOS Classic. And for all I know, it did. |
05:06 | < McMartin> | And anyway, part of the point here is that Win95's designers didn't *want* memory protection, since they knew full well it would break backcompat. |
05:06 | < McMartin> | That's why NT was a parallel project. |
05:07 | < McMartin> | s/break backcompat/fatally break backcompat/ |
05:07 | < McMartin> | Since this wasn't "don't run stuff from fly-by-night dev houses that are 13-year-olds in their parents' garages", but "AAA major corporate software all fails to even start." |
05:08 | | * McMartin does generally grant Win2k the credit as being the first mass-market operating system to be remotely appropriate for business use. |
05:09 | < McMartin> | Not counting things like POS systems, in which case, yes, Xenix and friends 4tw |
05:09 | < McMartin> | Also s/business/general office/, I suppose. |
05:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | My point was rather that when 95 was released, all the legacy software was for DOS. |
05:09 | < McMartin> | Since lots of typesetting outfits were happily running nothing but QuarkXPress. |
05:10 | < McMartin> | Win3.1, actually. |
05:10 | < McMartin> | Or WFW, but I'm not convinced anything ran on that. |
05:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | And I suspect it would have been possible to provide an unprotected memory region in which DOS apps could happily run and trash each other's data without leaving native win95 apps and especially the kernel naked. |
05:10 | < McMartin> | Ah, I see. |
05:11 | | * McMartin wonders if that was before or after they hired off all the VMS designers. |
05:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | Especially since DOS tops out at, what, 32MB memory total? |
05:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | Most of which is a pain in the ass to actually use? |
05:12 | < McMartin> | Whatever DOS topped out at, Win95 topped out at, since Win95 was a DOS app. |
05:12 | < McMartin> | What it really boils down to is that they should have made XP's kernel to begin with~ |
05:12 | < McMartin> | Since that was the first one to actually do this remotely properly. |
05:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | Win95 actually had something kernel-ish, though, and provided some measure of memory abstraction. |
05:13 | | * McMartin is without information to confirm or deny that, but OK. |
05:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | Whereas 3.1 was basically a window manager + drivers + libc patches for DOS. |
05:13 | < McMartin> | Yeah |
05:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | And raw DOS was "here's 640k of memory, and another 4M over here, and another 16M over here, and some bits of pieces lying around, and using most of it is an exercise in pain and torment" |
05:14 | | * McMartin nods |
05:15 | < McMartin> | DOS4GW covered a lot of that for free though, as long as you told your compiler "32-bit ptrs plz" |
05:15 | < McMartin> | Goddamn alien far pointers. |
05:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah. |
05:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | Although that was more like linking against a custom libc or something. |
05:16 | < McMartin> | Well |
05:16 | < McMartin> | All the libcs were custom. |
05:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well, yes |
05:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | Since the alternative is "manage is by hand" |
05:16 | < McMartin> | DOS4GW was specifically Watcom's, which had the best memory abstraction by a wide margin. |
05:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | But you get what I'm saying. |
05:17 | < McMartin> | I used Borland's back in the day and it was pretty close to the hardware while still being managable. |
05:17 | < McMartin> | But you were trapped in conventional memory. |
05:19 | < McMartin> | (And you could set it to jam code, data and stack all into one 64KB segment and thus generate .COM files, which was really nice) |
05:21 | < McMartin> | Well. It was really nice if you were then attacking it with a disassembler to see how it ticked. |
05:21 | < McMartin> | >_>, etc. |
05:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | Heh. |
05:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | (all this ties back into how I don't actually consider DOS an operating system~) |
05:23 | < McMartin> | It's not, but baremetal programming is fun. |
05:23 | < McMartin> | It just hasn't been *necessary* for decades outside of embedded applications, so we simulate it with our emulators. |
05:23 | < McMartin> | That said, .COM files *did* have memory protection! |
05:24 | < McMartin> | None of them were capable of accessing outside their chunk of ram, and the code was relocatable. |
05:24 | < McMartin> | It just didn't have *virtual* memory. |
05:25 | < McMartin> | (OK, so you could temporarily redefine the data segment and wreak havoc that way, but.) |
05:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...really? What happened if you inserted code into the COM to, say, manually construct a pointer someplace nasty and dereference it? |
05:26 | < McMartin> | You had to modify the segments to do so, as I noted. |
05:26 | <@ToxicFrog> | Interesting. |
05:26 | < McMartin> | Otherwise, your "manually constructed pointer" was only 16 bits wide. |
05:26 | < McMartin> | And so you were stuck in your 64KB prison. |
05:26 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh, right. |
05:27 | < McMartin> | This was largely academic anyway since DOS lacked pre-emptive multitasking and so even if you could jam 10 .COM programs into memory at once, you couldn't exactly swap between them. |
05:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | You could probably fake it using a TSR that hooked the timer interrupt. |
05:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | But it would be ugly. |
05:28 | < McMartin> | ... now that you mention it, there were programs that did that. |
05:28 | < McMartin> | Scream Tracker 3 did that. You could set an .S3M playing, and then spawn a new COMMAND.COM while it kept playing in the background. |
05:33 | <@Vornicus> | Man, the bad old days. |
05:33 | < McMartin> | Not that I don't recognize the thrill of developing for it. |
05:33 | < McMartin> | It's just not worth the effort now because if you're going to go retro now it might as well be for an 8-bit system. =P |
05:35 | < McMartin> | On an unrelated note, Vorn, did you ever get UQM to build on a Mac from the SVN trunk? |
05:35 | | * McMartin is getting mysterious errors. |
05:35 | <@Vornicus> | McM: I never really tried. |
05:35 | <@Vornicus> | What are the errors, though? |
05:35 | | * McMartin is resynching at the moment, so give him a sec. |
05:36 | | * Vornicus knows that very often projects don't really have OSX support in their makefiles, even when they're using cross-platform stuff. |
05:37 | < McMartin> | Well, we have our custom autotools replacement. |
05:37 | <@Vornicus> | Which makes it hard for people like me, trying to build projects from trunk and not having any guidance as regards how all that works, and not nearly enough makefile and build experience to really help. |
05:37 | < McMartin> | ... actually, at least one thing that's going to go wrong. I don't have frameworks for Ogg or Vorbisfile. |
05:38 | <@Vornicus> | I had issues with vorbis myself; for some reason the thing was demainding vorbisfile.0.so or something, and I only had vorbisfile.so and some others along that line |
05:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | Is your custom autotools replacement portable to other projects? |
05:39 | < McMartin> | TF: I *think* so. |
05:39 | < McMartin> | It's basically in shell, and configured with specific .in files and a "Makeinfo" file that lists the core deliverables. |
05:39 | < McMartin> | To my knowledge, however, nobody has tried. |
05:39 | < McMartin> | And it's not my fiefdom. |
05:40 | < McMartin> | And you don't do it with ./configure && make && make-install and so Gentooists hates us forever. |
05:40 | <@Vornicus> | Heh. |
05:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | So they have to set an extra veriable in your emerge script. Cry more, n00bs. |
05:41 | <@Vornicus> | OTTD's is just "make", and on Mac (their mac build support is incredible) it spews an .app and a disk image. |
05:41 | < McMartin> | They almost have a point that ./build.sh target config is interactive and thus not directly scriptable, but since it produces a new .sh file as a result that is then sourced, their job is to make that. |
05:41 | < McMartin> | And if they don't know how, they can run it interactively themselves and see what it produces. =P |
05:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or, hell, just abuse expect or something. |
05:42 | < McMartin> | Possible but, well, an abuse. It's better to just make the cfg file and have it waiting. |
05:42 | < McMartin> | At which point ./build.sh target reads it and moves on to the dependency analysis phase. |
05:42 | < McMartin> | (hooray for automatic and real dependency analysis as part of a cmdline build tool, omg) |
05:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | Dependency analysis in this case meaning it looks at the files and figures out what they depend on? |
05:44 | < McMartin> | But yeah. It's all in sc2/build/ and its subdirs that aren't obviously Windows or Mac specific, so if you want to investigate it feel free |
05:44 | < McMartin> | Yeah. Makedepend without the bullshit, and caching results between builds and automatically refiguring dependencies on modified files. |
05:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | Does "without the bullshit" in this case mean "generating dependencies with an external program is trivial", or "it's built in"? |
05:45 | < McMartin> | You can confuse it -- I managed this just the other day -- but I'm not convinced the confusion isn't the result of something that could be a bug in me. |
05:46 | | William__ [~JPL@Nightstar-764.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net] has joined #code |
05:46 | < McMartin> | A combination of "it's built in" and "there's none of this 'overwriting project-critical files in place' stuff" |
05:46 | < McMartin> | I intended mostly the latter though |
05:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hmm. Could you add external dependency generators, though? |
05:46 | < McMartin> | I have no idea, since I haven't looked at it |
05:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | Builtin ones work fine until you add a new file type it doesn't understand. |
05:46 | < McMartin> | For all I know it's using an external one. |
05:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
05:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh right, it's written in bourne, isn't it? |
05:47 | < McMartin> | Yeah. |
05:47 | < McMartin> | Since being on the receiving end of this tool is vastly more pleasant than autoconf, I heartily encourage others to look into it. |
05:47 | < McMartin> | I just haven't because UQM is the only project I'm on that has this level of complexity~ |
05:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | In which case the distinction between intrinsic and extrinsic is whether `type foo` is a function or an external binary, so it's pretty easy either way. |
05:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well. In truth the only projects I'm working on that might concievably need an autoconf-like are spellcast3 and ss1edit. |
05:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | Neither of which are being developed particularly quickly. |
05:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | Still, I'll take a look at it. |
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06:16 | | Vornicus is now known as Vornicus-Latens |
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07:00 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
07:29 | < McMartin> | Mmm. The biggest thing I miss in OS X Terminal is clickable URLs. |
07:29 | < McMartin> | ... which it turns out I'm not missing after all, it's just that I keep forgetting that right-clicks exist. |
07:31 | | William__ is now known as JeffL |
07:34 | < JeffL> | Hey. I'm working on a 10-week IRC project for school. Our group's goal is to completely wreck the curve. Any ideas for cool stuff to implement in an IRC client? |
07:38 | <@TheWatcher> | Write a bot that passes the Turing Test? ¬¬ |
07:40 | < JeffL> | I could do that if I could select the human to test against. >.> |
07:41 | < McMartin> | Multiple server support would be nice. |
07:41 | < McMartin> | Juggling various connections simultaneously looks good under the hood. |
07:41 | < McMartin> | On the other hand it isn't terribly shiny. |
07:41 | < McMartin> | But stuff that's all text rarely is. |
07:41 | < McMartin> | I suppose you could illuminate the capital letters or something. |
07:42 | | * TheWatcher ponders, tries to think of an IRC doohicky that hasn't been done to death one way or another |
07:51 | | * McMartin messes with UQM some |
07:51 | < McMartin> | /Everybody stand back/ |
07:51 | < McMartin> | I know regular expressions |
07:57 | <@AnnoDomini> | It's okay, sir. I'm from the internet. |
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08:15 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
08:32 | | JeffL [~JPL@Nightstar-764.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
08:32 | | Jeff [~JPL@Nightstar-764.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net] has joined #code |
08:46 | < McMartin> | Victory! |
09:47 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
10:41 | | * TheWatcher eyes the Darwin development mailing list archives |
10:46 | <@TheWatcher> | http://lists.apple.com/archives/xcode-users/2006/Apr/msg00528.html has code for apparently obtaining backtraces in c++ on osx |
13:22 | | C_tiger [~c_wyz@96.232.26.ns-4600] has joined #code |
13:25 | | * C_tiger readsup. |
13:34 | < C_tiger> | Jeff: things I think would be awesome IRC-wise: support for TTS/Speech recognition with different voices so blind people can phone into the server and take part in the conversation. Intelligent conversation tracking so if many conversations are going on in one channel, the client figures out which line of text goes with which conversation and splits them into two+ panes. |
13:35 | | * TheWatcher eyes C |
13:35 | | * TheWatcher eyes that last suggestion |
13:35 | < C_tiger> | I used to work with people with technology needs and there really is limited support for all sorts of disabilities in the computer world. |
13:36 | | * TheWatcher notes 10 week project, has known people working in AI research who have been trying to do conversation tracking for 10 /years/ >.> |
13:36 | < C_tiger> | From everything from illiteracy all the way up to blindness or physical handicaps. |
13:37 | < C_tiger> | Exactly, it'd totally wreck the grading curve if he can do it in 10 weeks. |
13:39 | < C_tiger> | The first one is actually a much more doable one... there are a few kinks to work out: ideally different people talking will have different "voices". |
13:39 | < C_tiger> | But how to manage that may be tricky. |
13:40 | < C_tiger> | And managing a really fast conversation can also be tough. |
13:41 | | * ReivZzz is aware of a couple blind users on the server. |
13:44 | < C_tiger> | (I'm also hoping for something that will help illiterates.) |
13:44 | < C_tiger> | Hence TTS. |
13:46 | < C_tiger> | Other ideas: serverside logging, efficient ways to introduce images into the conversation, letting you edit your last message to the channel. |
13:46 | < C_tiger> | Doing your laundry, making your coffee. |
13:50 | | * TheWatcher actually knows how to make a bot to do the latter >.> |
13:51 | <@TheWatcher> | ... images in IRc conversations... |
13:51 | <@TheWatcher> | ohgodthepain |
13:52 | < ReivZzz> | Images in IRC is badness :p |
13:52 | <@TheWatcher> | Unless you /like/ goatse |
13:52 | < ReivZzz> | tubgirl lulz |
13:53 | < ReivZzz> | Oh, and C: The different-voices is probably not a good idea. |
13:53 | < ReivZzz> | The blind folks I know tend to choose one voice, and then learn it well. |
13:54 | < ReivZzz> | This is deliberate, because they tend to have the voice sped up to 100+ wpm |
13:54 | < C_tiger> | True. |
13:54 | < ReivZzz> | Said person had for a long time mistaken 'Reiver' for 'River' given the screenreaders slight accent at such speeds. |
13:54 | <@TheWatcher> | (Imagine certain channels where people with '42' in their name link pictures of a less than salubrious nature repeatedly, except he can put them in-channel... and then reduce the intelligence a few notches...) |
13:55 | <@TheWatcher> | (if that's possible) |
13:55 | < ReivZzz> | (Imagine also people who post 13MB JPEGs from their nine megapixel camera.) |
13:56 | | * TheWatcher notes something, ....s |
13:56 | < C_tiger> | Well, I was more imagining a system involving uploading to a webpage and turning it into a link. |
13:56 | < ReivZzz> | You mean, uh |
13:56 | < ReivZzz> | Like what people do now? |
13:56 | < ReivZzz> | Only supposedly automated via macro? |
13:56 | < C_tiger> | Well, client side and automated. |
13:56 | < C_tiger> | yes. |
13:56 | < ReivZzz> | ...I, uh, could do that in mIRC if I wanted to. |
13:56 | <@TheWatcher> | ReivZzz: please never mix up you and river. the mental images are... so not going there. |
13:57 | < C_tiger> | I can't. |
13:57 | < C_tiger> | ;_; |
13:57 | < ReivZzz> | Reivers dating River! |
13:57 | | * TheWatcher patpat C |
13:57 | < C_tiger> | How come you guys get all sorts of fancy features :( |
13:57 | | * ReivZzz does a graceful pirouette, highkicks TW through a bulkhead. |
13:57 | | * ReivZzz then skins and rapes him, as is custom. ¬¬ |
13:58 | < ReivZzz> | (Man, that would be one hell of a kid to be raising.) |
13:58 | < C_tiger> | Why? |
13:58 | < ReivZzz> | The spawn of River and a Reiver? |
13:58 | < C_tiger> | Also, rape while demeaning tends to lose a lot when done on a dead person. Rape then skin. |
13:58 | < ReivZzz> | Fireflies most dangerous, and most psychotic, characters /in the setting/? |
13:59 | < ReivZzz> | Nah. Just skin in a cunning fashion so they live long enough for the next bit. >.> |
13:59 | < C_tiger> | I don't know this river person. |
13:59 | < ReivZzz> | Not a firefly fan? |
13:59 | < ReivZzz> | Ach, well. Nevermind then. >.> |
13:59 | | Doctor_Nick [~nick@68.35.203.ns-3367] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] |
13:59 | < C_tiger> | Nope. |
14:00 | < C_tiger> | Also, I mentally pronounce Reiver as REEver but now that I think about it, should probably pronounce as Raver. |
14:00 | < McMartin> | I pronounce it to rhyme with "Diver". |
14:01 | < ReivZzz> | REEver is closer. |
14:01 | < ReivZzz> | Though it's a meld of REEver and Diver, really. |
14:01 | <@TheWatcher> | (Firefly's alright, the whole 'wild west in space' thing is way too stretched for my liking on several occasions, but it's better than some...) |
14:01 | < ReivZzz> | There's a slight lift at the end of the 'e' sound. |
14:01 | < ReivZzz> | Kind of like in the word 'sea' vs 'see'. |
14:02 | < C_tiger> | (I pronounce those the same) |
14:02 | < ReivZzz> | (...blasted accents. Go with 'Ree', then.) |
14:03 | < ReivZzz> | (It had a solid foundation in many of the terraforming worlds, where the wild west anologies and tech /made perfect sense/. I just wish they left it in such places.) |
14:04 | | * C_tiger can't think of a single English word where ei gives the ee sound right now. |
14:05 | < ReivZzz> | Hint: It's technically scottish. |
14:05 | < ReivZzz> | The English spelling of 'Reiver' is 'Reaver'. |
14:05 | < C_tiger> | What's a scottish word where this happens? |
14:06 | <@TheWatcher> | Yup |
14:06 | < ReivZzz> | Er. Seize is probably not Scottish, but it comes to mind. |
14:07 | < C_tiger> | Ah, thanks. |
14:07 | < ReivZzz> | Receive also has the right vowel sound. |
14:08 | < ReivZzz> | 'Sleight' doesn't. I would assume it's from a different word source. |
14:08 | < C_tiger> | Yeah, but that's the i before e except after a S sound. |
14:08 | < C_tiger> | Weird is the that I should have remembered. |
14:09 | < ReivZzz> | heh. |
14:09 | < ReivZzz> | But, uh. Does 'seize' do it for you? |
14:09 | < ReivZzz> | (Re)'ceive' and 'reive' are a proper rhyme, if that helps. |
14:10 | < C_tiger> | I'll accept it. Weird is the one I was thinking of. |
14:10 | < ReivZzz> | Not quite an i, not quite an e. Probably why they used one of each. >.> |
14:10 | < C_tiger> | My accent pronounces receive as ree-seev |
14:12 | < ReivZzz> | ree-seiv. Again, a slight lift to an 'i' halfway through the second vowel sound. |
14:13 | | * C_tiger tries to find the IPA equivalent to this phantom sound. |
14:15 | < ReivZzz> | /i/, apparently? |
14:15 | < C_tiger> | Yes. |
14:17 | < C_tiger> | I think it's like the pinyin i |
14:18 | | * ReivZzz doesn't know that one. |
14:18 | | * ReivZzz also isn't an expert in linguistics, though he could ask his significant other, who /is/~ |
14:19 | < C_tiger> | It's a subtle difference because I'm having an insanely hard time actually forcing my mouth to distinguish them. |
14:20 | < ReivZzz> | Ah, yes, it is a subtle difference. |
14:20 | < ReivZzz> | Much like between 'sea' and 'see'. There is technically a difference, but it's lost in a lot of accents. |
14:20 | < ReivZzz> | (Not that I'm being high and mighty. New Zealanders just mush together different sets~) |
14:21 | < C_tiger> | If I force the tip of my tongue against my top row of teeth, the vowel FEELS different but it SOUNDS so similar that I can't tell it apart really. |
14:22 | < ReivZzz> | The human ear is actually rather good(chronic) at doing that. |
14:22 | < ReivZzz> | Much like japanese struggle with 'th', because they just can't hear the sound right. |
14:23 | < ReivZzz> | And meanwhile, /we/ can't tell the difference between 'tsu' and a very-shortened 'su', but there's one there alright. |
14:24 | < C_tiger> | (I note however, that I actually naturally do distinguish between city and tees in the sense that I "pronounce" the final vowel in city with my tongue pressed every so slightly higher in my mouth.) |
14:25 | < C_tiger> | I can't do the reiver thing, though, that tongueties. |
14:25 | | * gnolam adds a voiceless palatal-velar fricative just to stir things up. |
14:26 | < ReivZzz> | Eh, it's not really a problem. |
14:26 | < ReivZzz> | Most folks I know around even here tend to have trouble distinguishing it, when they say it. |
14:26 | < C_tiger> | A lot of cultures can't get the Chinese x,c,z,s,ch,sh,zh distinguished. |
14:26 | < ReivZzz> | I mostly have an unfair advantage in having a scottish great-aunt, and I've eversoslightly picked up a hint of the accent. Just enough to hit a few of the more gaelic vowels right. |
14:27 | < ReivZzz> | (It also helps that my christian name has the same 'ei' sound and spelling in it. Trying to teach me 'i before e' in primary school was something of a nightmare, and I never /did/ get it entirely right~) |
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14:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | Jeff: scripting support. Give your client the ability to be extended at runtime with the scripting language of your choice. |
14:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | This makes it easier to implement other shiny things, too. |
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18:23 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
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19:17 | < McMartin> | Ah. |
19:17 | < McMartin> | Objective-C |
19:17 | < McMartin> | "At least it's not C++" |
19:26 | | * AnnoDomini wishes he had a DSM-51 board, just so he could actually test his assembly code. |
19:27 | <@AnnoDomini> | They're like FOUR of the things for the entire Uni, and no simulator works well enough to test things completely. |
19:28 | <@gnolam> | On the topic of C++, I've come to the conclusion that I'm irreparably brain damaged. |
19:29 | < McMartin> | ? |
19:29 | < McMartin> | (That said, what I'm seeing of Objective-C's basic object model I'm liking much better than C++'s) |
19:29 | <@gnolam> | Lecturer: <tries to to point something out on a slide, but fails to find his pointing stick> "I can't find my pointer!" |
19:29 | <@gnolam> | Me: "Use a reference!" |
19:29 | < McMartin> | (But that's probably because it, like Python, uses the Smalltalk model) |
19:29 | <@AnnoDomini> | It's just gaaaaah. Can test code once a week, in class. It's like they actually want to fail anyone who isn't an assembly guru already. |
19:31 | <@gnolam> | That sounds like it sucks. |
19:32 | <@AnnoDomini> | It sucks balls. To top it off, the teacher is DELIBERATELY asking my lab partner all the questions, knowing full well she can't really work through his convoluted logic and metaphors. |
19:32 | <@gnolam> | We had a few dedicated remote login box/board setups for the specific purpose of allowing people to test assembly from home when we did that sort of stuff. |
19:36 | <@AnnoDomini> | We don't have anything like that. Out of three microprocessors, two have NO adequate simulators at all. |
19:39 | < MyCatVerbs> | gnolam: eh. Common Lisp weenies would instead interject with, "try a symbol instead, they're much better!" Six of one, half a dozen of the other. |
19:40 | <@gnolam> | This was in APiC++. :) |
19:41 | | * McMartin unleashes his ravenous AIs. |
19:47 | <@AnnoDomini> | Also, I hate these damned exam cards. This one doesn't match the published index filling form. |
19:53 | < McMartin> | OK. Hooray for Obj-C Protocols. |
19:54 | | * McMartin is, however, a bit unclear as to when and why one would ever want to use Categories. |
19:57 | <@gnolam> | Exam cards? |
20:00 | <@AnnoDomini> | We have two proofs that we have passed classes. One is the index, with class information and signatures of the teachers. The second is a copy for the Uni, I suppose, containing classes of a given semester, with signatures of teachers. In all cases, we have to actually get the signatures from the teachers, of course, and they give them only when they pass people. |
20:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: Protocols, Categories? |
20:09 | < McMartin> | Objective-C things. |
20:09 | < McMartin> | Protocols are basically Java-style Interfaces, despite the fact that Obj-C uses Smalltalk/Python method semantics. |
20:10 | < McMartin> | Categories produce cousin types that somehow are not quite subclasses. |
20:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | What's the purpose of Protocols? Better compile type checking? |
20:27 | < McMartin> | Looks like. |
20:27 | < McMartin> | Possibly more efficient object code compared to raw smalltalk calls? |
20:44 | <@AnnoDomini> | Another hateful thing about the duality of the paperwork is that it takes a whole damned hour to fill them in, if you've got all the information, and you want to be careful (which you do). |
21:01 | <@gnolam> | Sounds very... stone age. |
21:01 | <@gnolam> | Or Soviet. |
21:21 | | * McMartin successfully writes the Command Line Oppress-O-Tron |
21:22 | <@AnnoDomini> | CLOOT? |
21:23 | <@AnnoDomini> | m? It's a MATLAB script? |
21:23 | < McMartin> | It's an Objective-C module. |
21:23 | | * McMartin is learning Apple's Crazy Moon Language. |
21:24 | < McMartin> | Though the file as listed is written for GNUStep as that's what the Linux machines have as an ObjC runtime. |
21:25 | | * gnolam drives a stake through AnnoDomini's heart. |
21:26 | <@gnolam> | You said the Unmentionable Scripting Environment out loud. |
21:26 | < Vornicus> | What does it /do/? |
21:26 | < jerith> | Vorn: It oppresses the populous. |
21:26 | < McMartin> | The populace, too. |
21:26 | < jerith> | What else would a CLOOT do? |
21:27 | < jerith> | Yeah, that. |
21:27 | < McMartin> | This one oppresses 10 citizens, then randomly oppresses between 100 and 1000 after that. |
21:27 | < jerith> | My brain dribbled out of my ears last night and has not yet returned. |
21:27 | < McMartin> | This is mainly just to give me something to tie Cocoa events to later. |
21:27 | < McMartin> | In which pushing the "Oppress" button ups the oppression count. |
21:48 | | * gnolam eats jerith's delicious brain. |
21:50 | | * jerith goes to sleep, since it is the best thing to do when one lacks a brain. |
21:56 | | AnnoDomini [AnnoDomini@83.21.79.ns-4360] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
22:04 | | AnnoDomini [AnnoDomini@83.21.27.ns-4417] has joined #Code |
22:04 | | mode/#code [+o AnnoDomini] by ChanServ |
22:09 | < McMartin> | ... apparently, Categories are for extending classes that already exist, without subclassing. |
22:09 | < Vornicus> | ...whut? |
22:10 | < McMartin> | Vorn: So, say there's a library class String. |
22:10 | < McMartin> | And I'd like to add a new method to String. |
22:10 | < McMartin> | I don't have to subclass it; I can instead write a pretend-mixin and String will at program init be modified to accept those additional method calls. |
22:10 | < McMartin> | The joys of not having vtables. |
22:10 | < Vornicus> | oh, I see. |
22:11 | < McMartin> | This doesn't change the memory layout, so I am golden. |
22:36 | < Vornicus> | gnarg! Need to concentrate! |
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23:39 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
23:42 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
--- Log closed Wed Jan 23 00:00:26 2008 |