| --- Log opened Mon Nov 19 00:00:11 2007 |
| 00:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Woot! I have trained a two-layer back propagation neural network to do ? |
| 00:01 | | * Derakon is impressed my TF's neural network's mastery of UTF-8, which he saw as "?". |
| 00:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | That is correct. |
| 00:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | It is the logical and operator. |
| 00:03 | <@Derakon> | Okay, allow me to restate: I saw an 'a' with a circonflex, a checkmark, and this thing: §. |
| 00:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | Not to be confused with ? or ? or ?, which I know because I had to type dozens of the damn things for CPU design. |
| 00:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 00:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | It should look similar to ^ |
| 00:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | I suggest enabling UTF-8 :P |
| 00:04 | <@Derakon> | Yeah, yeah. |
| 00:04 | <@Derakon> | I have...sheesh, over a decade's worth of inertia using this IRC client. |
| 00:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | Does it not support UTF-8? |
| 00:05 | <@Derakon> | Not to my knowledge. |
| 00:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | Sorrow. |
| 00:05 | <@Derakon> | And the last update was over two years ago. |
| 00:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | But, yeah, turns out the problem I was having was that I was calculating error gradients in the hidden layer as (y * (1-y) + sigma[all neurons n in the following layer](gradient(n) * weight(this,n)) |
| 00:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | When that + should be a *. |
| 00:08 | | Vornicus is now known as Finerty |
| 00:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | Also, for the first time, NEdit's lack of UTF-8 support is truly driving me up the wall, because a lot of this math is way more readable when I can use greek letters. |
| 00:08 | <@McMartin> | Hee |
| 00:08 | <@Derakon> | Mental note: C++ is not Perl. Thus, when instantiating variables, you need "type name", not "my typename". |
| 00:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | I wonder how many cycles it would cost me to add UTF-8 support to NO BAD BAD BAD IDEA |
| 00:10 | | * Derakon snerks. |
| 00:11 | <@Derakon> | Yeegh, after a year of Perl programming, C++ feels hideously verbose in really crude ways. |
| 00:11 | <@Derakon> | "for (vector<Line>::iterator i = polygon.begin(); i != polygon.end(); ++i)" |
| 00:11 | <@Derakon> | That's no kind of for loop! |
| 00:11 | <@Derakon> | "foreach my $line (@polygon)" is a for loop! |
| 00:12 | <@McMartin> | It gets better |
| 00:12 | <@McMartin> | Depending on how the method that line is in is declared, your line may produce three pages of template expansion errors |
| 00:12 | <@McMartin> | Because you really needed const_iterator instead of iterator. |
| 00:12 | | * McMartin got bitten by that in his last C++ programming project. |
| 00:12 | <@Derakon> | Oh, I know, believe me - I have 3561 lines of C++ (counting comments and whitespace) in Niobium. |
| 00:13 | <@McMartin> | No prize for guessing why it was my last C++ project. |
| 00:13 | <@Derakon> | Which, frankly, is pretty good considering what it is. |
| 00:13 | <@Derakon> | Heh. |
| 00:13 | <@Derakon> | You haven't done another since then, duh! |
| 00:14 | | * McMartin spreads copies of his thesis defense across as many computers as possible, heads back home. |
| 00:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh hey, there's a patch that adds UTF8 support. |
| 00:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | Something to try when I'm testing out Lunar on this thing. |
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| 00:28 | <@Derakon> | Okay, I think I'm successfully detecting concave polygons now. |
| 00:28 | <@Derakon> | Go go gadget cross product. |
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| 00:29 | <@Derakon> | I think I shall write the subdivide-image code in Perl. ¬.¬ |
| 00:31 | < Finerty> | Cross product is your tiny perpendicular god. |
| 00:31 | <@Derakon> | ...I lied. It's on crack again. :\ |
| 00:32 | <@Derakon> | Probably just a matter of the ordering of my coordinates, like it was the first time. |
| 00:35 | <@Derakon> | ...or it could be a memory problem. That works too. |
| 00:35 | <@Derakon> | "Cross product between [<312,181>, <264,120>] and [<11227,5628992>, <5634784,437>] is -613207617.000000" |
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| 00:40 | <@Derakon> | Okay, here's a question for you - I don't want to muck with having multiple polygons for a single sprite. Should I just have a terrain "overlay" sprite on layer 2 (with no collision detection) and a bunch of invisible sprites on layer 1 (where the player is), or should I chunk up the terrain into a bunch of little pieces, ecah with its own polygon, on layer 1? |
| 00:40 | <@Derakon> | Keeping in mind that the polygons will have to overlap in either case. |
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| 03:05 | <@Derakon> | Mental note: be certain your "save" routine works before you try to map out an entire 800x600 image. |
| 03:10 | < Vornicus> | heh |
| 03:10 | < Vornicus> | ...dammit! Get Flash Morph Ball out of my head! |
| 03:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | Flash Morph Ball? |
| 03:12 | <@Derakon> | Vorn wants to make a Flash game featuring morph ball labyrinths, à la Metroid Prime. |
| 03:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 03:14 | <@Derakon> | Okay, problem. http://derakon.dyndns.org/~chriswei/temp2/polygons.png |
| 03:14 | <@Derakon> | See the lower-left corner of that image? |
| 03:15 | <@Derakon> | How there's a corner made by the polygons that isn't in the terrain? |
| 03:15 | < Vornicus> | With the multiple polygons getting close to sharing a line? |
| 03:15 | <@Derakon> | I don't care about polygon overlap or sharing lines; the polygons just need to, together, approximate the outline of the terrain. |
| 03:15 | <@Derakon> | But things like that corner represent areas where the player's sprite can get hung up, and that's bad. |
| 03:15 | < Vornicus> | And you're getting a jagged edge? |
| 03:15 | < Vornicus> | yeah |
| 03:15 | <@Derakon> | Any ideas for avoiding that? |
| 03:16 | <@Derakon> | I mean, I'm drawing these manually, so "just don't do that" is an option, but I'd prefer something a bit easier... |
| 03:16 | < Vornicus> | Aside from having the polygons share vertices in general? |
| 03:16 | <@Derakon> | Hrm...I guess that would work. |
| 03:16 | <@Derakon> | It'd require totally re-working my drawing program and adding support for dragging vertices around... |
| 03:17 | <@Derakon> | Though, on the plus side, it'd allow for better modifying of finished polygons than "delete everything you made since you made that one and draw them again." |
| 03:20 | | * Derakon introduces a memory leak with no plan to fix it. |
| 03:21 | <@McMartin> | Arena allocation! |
| 03:21 | <@Derakon> | Hrm? |
| 03:22 | <@McMartin> | Where you periodically crash and restart, resetting the heap. |
| 03:22 | <@McMartin> | Crash optional. |
| 03:22 | <@Derakon> | Heh. |
| 03:22 | <@McMartin> | (Malloc one big chunk, allocate from that, free it all at once when you're done.) |
| 03:22 | <@Derakon> | The memory leak is tiny and occurs only when you hit the 'd' key. |
| 03:22 | <@McMartin> | Yeah. |
| 03:22 | <@Derakon> | So I'm not worried. |
| 03:22 | <@Derakon> | Well, 'D' too. |
| 03:23 | <@McMartin> | You could fix that, if it became serious, by periodically doing a stop-and-copy. |
| 03:23 | <@Derakon> | Or just by re-writing this with proper style and classes. It's basically C code at the moment. |
| 03:25 | <@McMartin> | C++ still has manual memory allocation. >_< |
| 03:25 | | * Vornicus suddenly has several power ups that don't exist in any Metroid game thought up for Flash Morph Ball. |
| 03:26 | <@Derakon> | The "stand up" powerup? ¬.¬ |
| 03:26 | < Vornicus> | Pff. |
| 03:26 | <@McMartin> | <<DO NOT AIM CANNON AT FACE>> |
| 03:28 | < Vornicus> | No. Bounce (bounce off walls), Skate (walk on water), Torpedo (vectored flight in water), Slash (melee attack) |
| 03:29 | <@Derakon> | Skate should be an automatic result of falling on water after a boost at a suitable angle. |
| 03:31 | < Vornicus> | (this, in addition to Bomb, Boost, Spider, and Jump) |
| 03:32 | <@Derakon> | ...heh. Powerbombs should be constrained by topography, à la D&D fireballs. ¬.¬ |
| 03:32 | < Vornicus> | ...bitchrod. |
| 03:33 | <@Derakon> | Though I note that limits their capabilities vis à vis discovering secret passages. |
| 03:33 | < Vornicus> | True. |
| 03:33 | <@McMartin> | Compression might let you blast around corners. |
| 03:33 | <@McMartin> | The pressure wave in the tunnel isn't going to stop at a corner. |
| 03:33 | <@Derakon> | Also true. |
| 03:39 | < Vornicus> | Also Clear (like the Glass ball in WADF, except it actually acts kinda like glass), Zip and Cannon (like the MZM equivalents)... |
| 03:40 | <@Derakon> | ...my first pass at making coordinates shared and mutable has some...interesting results. It runs, and it does not crash, but I can hardly call it usable. |
| 03:42 | < Vornicus> | heh |
| 03:45 | < Vornicus> | Grapple (possibly two versions, one kinda like Super Metroid, one more like JetMoto) |
| 03:45 | <@McMartin> | "Pirates don't freak out." "You might." |
| 03:45 | <@Derakon> | What's the JetMoto one like? |
| 03:46 | < Vornicus> | JetMoto's grabs on to the nearest grapple point and you just keep your existing speed and the grapple point exerts a force on you. |
| 03:47 | <@Derakon> | Ah. |
| 03:48 | < Vornicus> | As opposed to Metroid's where you pendulum. |
| 03:48 | <@Derakon> | I recommend this version of the grapple beam: http://www.bobandgeorge.com/Subcomics/Metroid/Archive/Metroid046.png |
| 03:48 | < Vornicus> | Hee. |
| 03:49 | <@McMartin> | GRAVGUN'D. |
| 03:49 | < Vornicus> | Neither MZM nor MF have grapple, do they. |
| 03:50 | <@Derakon> | Nope. |
| 03:50 | <@Derakon> | I'd blame control issues. |
| 03:50 | <@Derakon> | Since the missiles/powerbombs were a "hold to toggle" thing. |
| 03:50 | < Vornicus> | Mmm. With less buttons you don't really have a place to put it. |
| 03:50 | <@Derakon> | You could've used the Super Metroid control system, but everyone who isn't me seems to hate that method. *shrug* |
| 03:51 | < Vornicus> | The main problem with SM's toggle system is too many modes in sequence. |
| 03:52 | <@Derakon> | That's what the "cancel" button was for. |
| 03:52 | <@Derakon> | Granted it's not perfect, but to get from supermissiles to missiles was two buttons (cancel, then advance), for example. |
| 03:52 | | * Vornicus still likes his reworking of it. |
| 03:52 | <@Derakon> | Honestly the biggest problem with Super Metroid is that it really needed to have two sets of shoulder buttons. |
| 03:56 | < Vornicus> | oh, also Drop (falling a decent distance makes you damage them, instead of the other way around - see Kirby) |
| 03:56 | <@Derakon> | Drop should just send you into boost mode, frankly. |
| 03:56 | < Vornicus> | true. |
| 04:01 | < Vornicus> | ...good god, pressure-wave power bombs + gunpowder physics. |
| 04:02 | <@Derakon> | Gunpowder physics? |
| 04:03 | < Vornicus> | er, whatever. Power bomb + corridor + ball that gets pushed around by wind = instant gun. |
| 04:03 | <@Derakon> | ...oh. |
| 04:03 | <@Derakon> | Oh dear. |
| 04:03 | <@Derakon> | Super bomb jump! |
| 04:04 | < Vornicus> | hehe. |
| 04:08 | | * Vornicus wonders what that would look like. |
| 04:09 | <@Derakon> | The big problem with pressure-wave powerbombs is implementing the fluid mechanics to drive it. |
| 04:09 | < Vornicus> | Very much so. |
| 04:09 | <@Derakon> | Maybe there's an existing implementation you can steal. |
| 04:09 | < Vornicus> | I saw an awesome liquid-physics demo a few months back. |
| 04:12 | < Vornicus> | but gases are weirder. |
| 04:12 | <@Derakon> | Nah; gasses are just fast liquids. |
| 04:12 | <@Derakon> | With less gravity. |
| 04:12 | < Vornicus> | Not really - gases are compressible. |
| 04:12 | <@Derakon> | Mph, okay, can't argue with that. |
| 04:16 | < Vornicus> | But you can probably pull a cellular automata approach with it. |
| 04:17 | <@Derakon> | Particle speed is based on current speed, but the cell imparts an outwards force (ideally evenly spread over all particles in the cell) based on the number of particles in the cell. |
| 04:17 | <@Derakon> | Well, and their energy. |
| 04:17 | < Vornicus> | You have pressure and temperature and motion direction. |
| 04:18 | < Vornicus> | (energy = temperature) |
| 04:22 | < Vornicus> | And then the motion direction (and speed, at that) give you apparent pressures on each edge via Bernoulli, and then... well, you get the idea. your Speed Of Sound ends up being the size of each cell divided by the update rate, which is pretty small unless you do heavy calculations - my first approximation would have been somewhere between 3 and 8 "squares" per second. |
| 04:23 | <@Derakon> | This is why you find someone who's already done the problem. |
| 04:23 | < Vornicus> | Yeah. |
| 04:25 | < Vornicus> | Though if you tone down the granularity to just one thing per square, you can get it up to 30 squares a second, which is actually almost reasonable. Given Metroid scales it's 30m/s, or about 1/10th the real speed of sound. |
| 04:26 | <@Derakon> | I note that Samus in Super Metroid shinespark (fastest of the lot, I believe) probably isn't going more than 35MPH or so |
| 04:26 | <@Derakon> | Though I haven't done any kind of rigorous testing of this. |
| 04:26 | < Vornicus> | Shinespark is the post-boost jump, right? |
| 04:26 | <@Derakon> | Samus can also outrun powerbomb shockwaves. |
| 04:26 | <@Derakon> | Yes. |
| 04:27 | <@Derakon> | Which is itself faster than the running. |
| 04:27 | < Vornicus> | There has to be some speedrun stats out there that talk about this. |
| 04:28 | <@Derakon> | Sadly, http://tasvideos.org/SuperMetroidTricks.html does not appear to have speedss. |
| 04:28 | <@Derakon> | speeds, even. |
| 04:29 | <@Derakon> | I guess such stats are mostly useful in games where the disparities between different methods of transportation are not obvious. |
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| 04:39 | <@Derakon> | I can now snap lines to existing vertices. |
| 04:41 | < Vornicus> | sweet. |
| 04:44 | | * Vornicus ponders. moving creatures give a V change, and a 'surface area' change. |
| 04:46 | <@Derakon> | I really don't recommend trying to derive fluid mechanics from first principles. |
| 04:49 | < Vornicus> | Heh. I have the fluid mechanics, the problem is, well, cellular automata. Doing classical fluid mech at the scale I'm talking about is Hard Math; reducing it to a single cell is pretty simple, so long as I can control the parameters as strongly as I need to. |
| 04:54 | < Vornicus> | The reason I'm thinking in this direction is because the liquid demo I saw did the same thing. |
| 04:56 | < Vornicus> | Gases are slightly more complicated; liquid-gas interfaces are for all practical purposes impossible. |
| 04:56 | <@Derakon> | By which you mean they're computationally expensive? |
| 04:57 | < Vornicus> | Extremely so. |
| 04:59 | < Vornicus> | Also to get the kind of detail you'd need for a platformer, you'd need to decrease the grain size to at most 2px. |
| 05:04 | <@Derakon> | Blargh...snapping does not in fact yet work... |
| 05:06 | <@Derakon> | ...or maybe it does, having made one minor tweak. |
| 05:07 | <@Derakon> | It doesn't appear to be perfect, as I can create theoretically identical lines that nonetheless draw slightly differently, but it should be close enough. |
| 05:07 | < Vornicus> | Which would be something along the lines of, uh, 1/16th of a unit, or so. |
| 05:07 | <@Derakon> | Hrm? |
| 05:07 | < Vornicus> | 2px. |
| 05:07 | <@Derakon> | Oh, normal cells would be 32px? |
| 05:08 | < Vornicus> | or about there, yes. |
| 05:14 | < Vornicus> | Though even at 1/8 it's still a 64-fold increase in required computations. |
| 05:16 | < Vornicus> | (and then another 8-fold if I wanted to keep the speed of sound the same) |
| 05:19 | | * ToxicFrog graphs 100 lines of roughly 10000 samples each |
| 05:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | This could take a while. |
| 05:33 | < Vornicus> | PS? |
| 05:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yep. |
| 05:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | No way am I trying this in OO. |
| 05:44 | < Vornicus> | Also, Der: that page of Super Metroid TAS info has a Dying In Ceres thing, which I can't use. Do you know the content? |
| 05:44 | < Vornicus> | or, the upshot, rather? |
| 05:44 | <@Derakon> | Oh, I tried to watch that, and it desynced. |
| 05:44 | <@Derakon> | I haven't gotten any videos to play properly. :\ |
| 05:44 | < Vornicus> | blar. |
| 05:46 | <@Derakon> | Hrm...though if I had to guess, I'd say it involves hitting Ridley 100 times, causing him to drop the Metroid capsule, land to pick it up, and then fly off, and using that forced action time to kill yourself on him before he flies off. |
| 05:47 | <@Derakon> | Probable upshot: you continue at the Ceres elevator. |
| 05:50 | <@Derakon> | I should muck about with the reset glitch again sometime. ISTR the Ceres doors being vulnerable to super missiles, such that you can leave the Ridley fight and then come back (the fight resets). |
| 05:52 | | * Derakon eyes Sonic 2 on the Master System. "Level 3: Sonic makes a leap to certain death, but Robotnik catches him and saves his life so he can fight Robotnik's boss. WTF?" |
| 05:54 | < Vornicus> | ...whut? |
| 05:55 | <@Derakon> | There's a forced jump in the third level of the first act, with nothing but a sheer wall too high to jump, and lava at the bottom. But Robotnik will dive in, snag you with his little ship thing, and drop you off at the top, where you face off against an antlion. |
| 05:56 | < Vornicus> | This is, what, putting Sonic 2 in the SMS instead of the Genesis? |
| 05:56 | <@Derakon> | No, this is Sonic 3 for the SMS. |
| 05:56 | <@Derakon> | Different game. |
| 05:56 | <@Derakon> | Er, 2. |
| 05:57 | <@Derakon> | Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cgLnqJWS9I |
| 05:57 | <@Derakon> | And I recommend skipping the end-of-level bonus tally. |
| 05:58 | < Vornicus> | that's a hell of a bonus tally. |
| 05:59 | < Vornicus> | What's that thing he picks up in act 2? |
| 05:59 | <@Derakon> | Chaos Emerald. |
| 05:59 | < Vornicus> | ah |
| 06:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | Derakon: presumably, this is when Robotnik is still in "Sonic will make an appropriate beta tester for my killbots" mode, as opposed to "dammit, not Sonic again" mode./ |
| 06:38 | <@Derakon> | Heh. |
| 06:38 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, he's only been thwarted four times at that point~ |
| 06:41 | < Vornicus> | He needs a less awesome beta tester. |
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| 19:14 | <@gnolam> | Reverted like a Talan. |
| 19:14 | <@McMartin> | Which drivers were these? |
| 19:16 | <@gnolam> | At least >= 7.9. Possibly including 7.8 as well, but I reverted to 7.7 just to be safe. :P |
| 19:17 | <@McMartin> | Which card? |
| 19:18 | <@gnolam> | Radeon 9800 Pro. But from my googling, it seems to be /all/ AGP cards. :P |
| 19:18 | <@gnolam> | s/be/affect |
| 19:21 | | Netsplit over, joins: jerith, Pi |
| 19:21 | | mode/#code [+o jerith] by ChanServ |
| 19:21 | | Netsplit over, joins: ReivZzz |
| 19:21 | | mode/#code [+o Pi] by ChanServ |
| 19:24 | | * gnolam repeatedly slams his head against his desk. |
| 19:24 | <@gnolam> | Forgot to set OICE2. No wonder the interrupt wasn't firing properly. |
| 19:25 | <@gnolam> | *OCIE2 |
| 19:30 | | * Pi helps out the desk, by adding a pillow between. |
| 19:35 | <@gnolam> | I believe my head is rather hollow, so I don't think I did any permanent damage. |
| 19:41 | <@gnolam> | If you want to, you can ignore the last 5 words of the previous sentence. |
| 19:51 | < Vornicus> | ...gah, get this game out of my head. Now I have thermal and pressure scanners, three more kinds of bomb, and a few other goodies. |
| 19:52 | | GeekSoldier is now known as GeekSoldier|bed |
| 19:55 | <@gnolam> | Vornicus: what game? |
| 19:56 | < Vornicus> | a Morph Ball game. |
| 19:56 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-10613.8.5.253.static.se.wasadata.net] has quit [Quit: Attempting to beat some sense into Windows.] |
| 19:58 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-10613.8.5.253.static.se.wasadata.net] has joined #Code |
| 19:58 | | mode/#code [+o gnolam] by ChanServ |
| 19:58 | <@gnolam> | NYARGHL |
| 19:59 | <@gnolam> | All I want is an OS that doesn't suck. Is that really too much to ask? |
| 19:59 | < Vornicus> | Yes, it is. |
| 19:59 | < Vornicus> | a Morph Ball game. |
| 20:03 | | * gnolam starts foaming at the mouth. |
| 20:04 | <@gnolam> | Transparent. Text. Background. HOW HARD CAN IT BE? |
| 20:06 | < Vornicus> | dunno. |
| 20:07 | < MyCatVerbs> | gnolam: tried current Gnome, will all the flashy 3D shit? |
| 20:08 | <@gnolam> | I try to stay far, far away from Gnome. :P |
| 20:09 | < MyCatVerbs> | True. Who cares about flashy shit anyway? Tiling window managers FTW. |
| 20:23 | | * gnolam sighs. |
| 20:24 | <@gnolam> | Guess it's the dreaded Windows One-Way Street. :P |
| 20:27 | <@gnolam> | The Roach Motel for Obscure Settings. |
| 20:28 | <@McMartin> | Compiz has been around for what, the last three Ubuntus? |
| 20:28 | <@McMartin> | And it's less about transparent text and more about CUBE_, imo. |
| 20:30 | | * gnolam doesn't care about transparent text. He just wants the text /background/ to be transparent. |
| 20:32 | <@McMartin> | Gnome-terminal actually doesn't require the 3D stuff for Transparent Background. |
| 20:32 | <@gnolam> | Alas, that is too much to ask as "#!#!#"! XP has gotten in its "!#!"#!"¤ head to Stop Doing That. |
| 20:32 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-10613.8.5.253.static.se.wasadata.net] has quit [Quit: Reboot _Again_. Not that it'll help.] |
| 20:35 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-10613.8.5.253.static.se.wasadata.net] has joined #Code |
| 20:35 | | mode/#code [+o gnolam] by ChanServ |
| 20:36 | <@gnolam> | KILL |
| 20:43 | <@gnolam> | Hah! It heard me! |
| 23:20 | | Thaqui [~Thaqui@Nightstar-5273.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #code |
| 23:20 | | mode/#code [+o Thaqui] by ChanServ |
| --- Log closed Tue Nov 20 00:00:17 2007 |