| --- Log opened Thu Oct 11 00:00:26 2007 |
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| 04:04 | | * Vornicus fiddles with Catan and the game opening. |
| 04:04 | <@Vornicus> | Which is definitely the hardest part. |
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| 08:52 | | Netsplit DeepThought.NY.US.Nightstar.Net <-> Blargh.CA.US.Nightstar.Net quits: @Pi, DiceBot, @Vornicus, @EvilDarkLord, GeekSoldier|work, ReivClass, @Chalcedon, @Kyrre, @jerith, @Chalain |
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| 20:35 | <@jerith> | http://tnx.nl/php_small.jpg |
| 20:37 | | * AnnoDomini laughs. |
| 20:37 | <@Vornicus> | hee |
| 20:44 | < Zemyla> | What is wrong with this host or image? |
| 20:44 | | Mischief [~Genesis@Nightstar-7565.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #code |
| 20:44 | < Zemyla> | It always cuts off the bottom. |
| 20:44 | < Mischief> | Heya! I need suggestions for a flexible code compiler. |
| 20:45 | < Zemyla> | What kind of code? |
| 20:45 | < Mischief> | C++, C, C#, VC++, VC#, Asp.net, DirectX.. |
| 20:45 | < Zemyla> | I've refreshed seven times, and I've still never seen the bottom of that image. |
| 20:46 | < Zemyla> | What does it say? |
| 20:48 | < Mischief> | I'm thinking Microsoft VC++ 7.0 |
| 20:48 | <@jerith> | PHP: Training wheels without the bike. |
| 20:48 | <@jerith> | Zemyla: Are you behind a caching proxy? |
| 20:48 | <@jerith> | Try append a "?" to it to foll it into thinking it's dynamic... |
| 20:49 | < Zemyla> | "I know headless means that the system doesn't have a screen but I still get this idea of a box strapped to a horse, chasing down Ichabod Crane." |
| 20:49 | < Zemyla> | Apparently not, Ctrl-F5 causes it to reload, but it still doesn't load right. |
| 20:49 | < Zemyla> | In fact, I see less of the picture with every refresh. |
| 20:59 | < Zemyla> | I got it now. Freaking library computers. |
| 21:00 | <@jerith> | Ah, library. |
| 21:00 | <@jerith> | Try the ? trick, then. |
| 21:04 | < Mischief> | Jerith, would you suggest Microsoft's VC++ compiler? |
| 21:05 | <@jerith> | Mischief: I've never used it. |
| 21:05 | < Mischief> | What do you use? |
| 21:05 | <@jerith> | My C compiler of choice is gcc. |
| 21:05 | <@jerith> | But I write very little C. |
| 21:05 | < Mischief> | Ah, I mean compiling in Windows |
| 21:05 | < Zemyla> | So is mine. |
| 21:05 | < Zemyla> | There's a system called Mingw. |
| 21:05 | < Zemyla> | It allows you to write windows programs with gcc. |
| 21:05 | <@jerith> | I haven't written code for Windows since I was required to pass a VB programming course. |
| 21:06 | < Mischief> | I don't have gcc for windows though, Zem. :P |
| 21:06 | <@jerith> | The last time I did it by choice I used Delphi, but that was nearly a decade ago. |
| 21:06 | < Zemyla> | It comes with it. |
| 21:06 | | * Mischief pokes Zem's brain |
| 21:06 | < Mischief> | I mean Im compiling in a Window's environment |
| 21:06 | < Mischief> | I'm not using Linux at all |
| 21:07 | | * jerith extracts Mischief's fingers and washes them. |
| 21:07 | <@jerith> | You don't know where that's been! |
| 21:07 | < Mischief> | ..The gutter? |
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| 22:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | Mischief: googling dev-c++ will get you a windows IDE for C and C++, and mingw.org will get you the compiler and linker programs (and other stuff) it uses as a backend. |
| 22:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | As far as the others go - |
| 22:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | Don't know about C#. |
| 22:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | VC++ is not the same as the C++ understood by gcc and other compilers, and I recommend avoiding it. |
| 22:01 | < Mischief> | I'm compiling a gaming engine. |
| 22:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Don't know about ASP, except that dev-c++, being a C and C++ IDE, won't handle it. What do you need it for anything? |
| 22:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | And DirectX isn't a language, it's a set of libraries. |
| 22:01 | < Mischief> | Yes, but it's used in the C++ language |
| 22:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes, but anything that can build and link C++ windows programs can link them against directx. |
| 22:02 | | * Mischief isn't COMPLETELY sure how it works, but is learning |
| 22:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | And it's not so much "used in the C++ language" as "used by some C++ programs" |
| 22:02 | <@jerith> | DirectX is written in C++ (I think) but has bindings available for a bunch of languages. |
| 22:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | Anyways. |
| 22:02 | < Mischief> | I also think dev-c++ isn't supported |
| 22:02 | < Mischief> | By the engine |
| 22:02 | <@Vornicus> | DirectX :( |
| 22:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | If you're compiling someone else's engine, you should be using the tools it requires. |
| 22:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | Since it almost certainly will not build using other tools unless it's fairly simple. |
| 22:03 | < Mischief> | The source is from Garage Games, I've modified it before, but I used VC++ by Microsoft |
| 22:03 | < Mischief> | It's VERY complex |
| 22:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah, Torque? |
| 22:03 | < Mischief> | Yep |
| 22:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | Stick with the tools they tell you to build it with. |
| 22:04 | < Mischief> | Okay. I was just wondering if there was anything else, out of curiosity. |
| 22:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | Moving a large project from one development system to another is nontrivial, and not for the inexperienced or the faint of heart. |
| 22:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | This is especially true of C++, which no two compilers agree on. |
| 22:04 | < Mischief> | Heh |
| 22:04 | < Mischief> | I'm playing with the Networking library code |
| 22:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | There is always something else. However, this only really applies when starting up a new project, or porting small ones. |
| 22:05 | < Mischief> | I'm sure I'll be using TCP for server client connections. UDP would just be... crazy |
| 22:05 | < Mischief> | But it might help with streaming junk data that isn't /needed/ |
| 22:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | You cannot take something built with the expectation of building under msdev and build it under gcc, or icc, or borland, unless you are very lucky, because while they all call it C++ none of them compile quite the same language |
| 22:06 | < Mischief> | I get it, Toxic |
| 22:06 | < Mischief> | Thank you |
| 22:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | As far as networking goes, I note that most realtime games use UDP. |
| 22:06 | < Mischief> | But if packet data isn't checked, it's possible to spoof the packets |
| 22:06 | < Mischief> | It'll take a lot of work to migrate all the client data to server, too |
| 22:07 | < Mischief> | But UDP is great for streaming data. |
| 22:07 | < Mischief> | So I'm not completely sure, yet. |
| 22:07 | < Mischief> | I really need to look at the TNL coding first. |
| 22:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes, UDP is unreliable, but it's better to lose a few packets than to have one of the nodes wedge on a lossy connection; as long as you design the update protocol well, they'll catch back up with the next few packets (or drop from the game, if it gets too bad) |
| 22:08 | < Mischief> | That's true. |
| 22:08 | < Mischief> | I want to shave as much as I can from the packets too. |
| 22:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | (for non-realtime games, TCP makes your life way easier, but for realtime, reality gets in the way too often) |
| 22:10 | < Mischief> | Under 10k is my goal. Which will get hard as I add server administered storms and such. For example. Instead of telling the client when the storm starts, and where. Then sending another packet to tell it to stop. Maybe have just one packet that tells when it starts, and when it ends. |
| 22:11 | < Mischief> | Which shaves off some of the encapsulated junk telling the packet where to go. |
| 22:11 | < Mischief> | Every bit counts. |
| 22:12 | < Mischief> | Just, UDP doesn't resend data if data fails. |
| 22:13 | < Mischief> | Which means, if the client loses the weather packet, it loses the effect completely. So maybe UDP/TCP? |
| 22:13 | < Zemyla> | Or resend it. |
| 22:13 | < Mischief> | TCP would resend it |
| 22:13 | < Zemyla> | That's what XPilot (a UDP game I helped with) does for reliable messages. |
| 22:13 | < Zemyla> | Like enter/exit and chat messages. |
| 22:14 | <@Vornicus> | TCP totally kills your realtimeness though. |
| 22:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aaaah, xpilot |
| 22:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | Good times |
| 22:14 | < Mischief> | Well, why not do both? If you use TCP for the Weather packet, it'll go through |
| 22:14 | < Mischief> | and UDP for movement |
| 22:14 | < Zemyla> | You've played XPilot? |
| 22:14 | < Mischief> | As movement packets are more frequent, and more dependent on real time. |
| 22:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | Extensively. |
| 22:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | Mostly LAN, but some metaserver games, too |
| 22:15 | < Mischief> | Plus, you can add a function that if packet loss is getting high from the TCP packets being sent, the client be kicked |
| 22:15 | | * ToxicFrog has an unhealthy love of cluster implosion nukes, in games that permit them >.> |
| 22:15 | < Mischief> | Which would remove the hang up on that node. |
| 22:16 | < Zemyla> | Cluster implosion nukes are love. I sometimes use V3 and lob them so there's this great honking cloud of fire. |
| 22:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | It gets even sicker when you turn on bouncing bullets, and use them in confined spaces! |
| 22:17 | < Mischief> | Hmm.. Thus, TCP packets could be used for a double edged function, cut out ping from server side, but let client continue to ping the server |
| 22:17 | < Mischief> | As the weather effect doesn't need a return packet. |
| 22:17 | < Zemyla> | I wouldn't use TCP. |
| 22:17 | < Mischief> | I wouldn't use TCP is /full/ |
| 22:17 | < Mischief> | in* |
| 22:18 | < Mischief> | But it has its advantages in certain points |
| 22:19 | < Zemyla> | Unfortunately, I can't play it on library computers. |
| 22:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | So, yeah. Played xpilot for years. Never did any sourcery on it, though. |
| 22:22 | < Mischief> | What's bad about TCP? |
| 22:22 | < Mischief> | As far as I know, it checks to make sure that a packet is sent by asking for a packet back |
| 22:22 | <@Vornicus> | Sure, but it also potentially delays full reception of packets. |
| 22:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | TCP is slow, and the lossier the link, the slower it is. |
| 22:23 | <@Vornicus> | So you no longer get the data in real time. |
| 22:23 | < Mischief> | That's fine. |
| 22:23 | < Mischief> | Using the weather example again, it's a static effect that would last for hours, and only requires ONE packet |
| 22:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | And exact time of delivery is not vital. |
| 22:24 | < Mischief> | Exactly. |
| 22:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | So as long as you structure the server to not block on that, I'd think it would be fine. |
| 22:24 | < Mischief> | But for things like movement. |
| 22:24 | < Mischief> | UDP. |
| 22:24 | < Mischief> | Precisely! |
| 22:25 | < Mischief> | TCP for environmental effects. |
| 22:25 | < Mischief> | While thunderstorms and the like would be mostly Client Side |
| 22:25 | < Mischief> | It just needs to be sent a key to start |
| 22:29 | <@Vornicus> | All this said, depending on your game, TCP may be the correct choice; OTTD I think uses TCP because desync can be so devastating. |
| 22:35 | < Mischief> | As ambitious or idiotic it might be, I'm shooting for an MMORPG. By saying this, I realise I have little programming skills, little network resources... And my main skills lay in professional networking for Small and Medium businesses. :P |
| 22:36 | < Mischief> | But! By next term, I'll be into ISP managing. |
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| --- Log closed Fri Oct 12 00:00:32 2007 |