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code logs -> 2007 -> Wed, 18 Jul 2007< code.20070717.log - code.20070719.log >
--- Log opened Wed Jul 18 00:00:23 2007
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10:23 Netsplit Troika.TX.US.Nightstar.Net <-> DeepThought.NY.US.Nightstar.Net quits: @EvilDarkLord, @Thaqui, @ToxicFrog, ToxicFrog|W`rkn
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16:55 * ToxicFrog|W`rkn gets fed up with this source tree and chmod -R a+rwx .
16:59 mode/#code [+ooooo EvilDarkLord MyCatVerbs Raif ToxicFrog ToxicFrog|W`rkn] by AnnoDomini
16:59 * Chalain frequently gets fed up with source trees, and does g+srwx.
17:00
<@Chalain>
...but that's because I want any newly created files, tossed in there by the tools, webserver, or other users, to be g+rwx.
17:00
<@Chalain>
g+s is my friend. :-)
17:00
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
What does the s do?
17:00
<@Serah>
You know? I'm finding MacOS sillier and sillier as I delve deeper into th arcane mysteries that is MacOSX.
17:02
<@Chalain>
It sets the 'sticky bit' on the directory.
17:03 You're now known as TheWatcher[afk]
17:04
<@Chalain>
If you are user toxic in group coders, and I am chalain in group coders, and the folder is, say, g+srw, then if you create a file in that folder it will be automagically chgrped to toxic:coders (instead of toxic:toxic) and made g+rw.
17:05
<@Chalain>
It's very useful if you're sharing a workspace with other users.
17:05
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Aha.
17:05
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Idly, when did it become convention for users to be username:username instead of username:users?
17:06
<@Chalain>
Also, it's a common trick with cvs+ssh, because you do checkins and updates under your own username, meaning you can import and commit files such that other users cannot overwrite them. So you make a cvsusers group, etc.
17:06
<@Chalain>
Sometime after 2002.
17:06
<@Chalain>
No
17:06
<@Chalain>
before
17:06
<@Chalain>
I meant to say before.
17:06
<@Chalain>
I got started with linux in 2002, and it was like that everywhere I looked.
17:07
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
It definitely wasn't like this before Linux, at least.
17:07
<@Chalain>
Mm.
17:07 * Chalain wonders... drat.
17:07
<@Chalain>
I don't have a FreeBSD box around anymore.
17:08
<@Chalain>
I *vaguely* recall that it might have been like that, with the :users thing.
17:08
<@Chalain>
As recently as last year.
17:08
<@Chalain>
But then again, last year was when I discovered that FreeBSD != linux, and apparently it really does matter.
17:09
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
...yeah, it does.
17:09
<@Chalain>
Oh, I don't care about PEOPLE who are all uppity about the difference.
17:09
<@Chalain>
I just mean, your linux stuff won't compile on FreeBSD.
17:09
<@Chalain>
Because it is poo.
17:09
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
I know that it was foo:users as late as 1997 or so on SCO UNIX.
17:10
<@Chalain>
<-- helps admin about 15 linux boxen, and until last year, also 1 FreeBSD server.
17:10
<@Chalain>
At that ISP, our choices were a) FreeBSD b) getting gangraped by gorillas.
17:10
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
;.;
17:12
<@Chalain>
I finally made my fellow admin see the advantages of gorilla intimacy, as compared to the horrors of FreeBSD .
17:12
<@Chalain>
1
17:12 * Chalain kicks irssi.
18:09
<@AnnoDomini>
Hm. Does anyone perchance know how to make Java strings have more than one line?
18:09
<@AnnoDomini>
I mean, I'm trying to use \n and it isn't working.
18:09
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
\n should work.
18:10
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
How do they show up?
18:10
<@AnnoDomini>
It shows up as one of those box characters.
18:11
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
...
18:11
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Try \r\n perhaps?
18:11 * AnnoDomini tries.
18:11
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
As you appear to be on windows.
18:11
<@AnnoDomini>
I get two box characters now.
18:12 You're now known as TheWatcher
18:12
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
What are you doing with the string?
18:13
<@AnnoDomini>
Concatenating.
18:13
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
"\r" and "\n" are the right ways to include CR and LF in a string.
18:13
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
...and after that?
18:13
<@AnnoDomini>
Putting it in a TextField.
18:13
<@AnnoDomini>
With setText().
18:14
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Are you sure that the TextField allows embedded newlines, as opposed to requiring, say, a call to lineFeed() or something?
18:14
<@AnnoDomini>
That might be it.
18:14 * AnnoDomini will try to put it in something else.
18:14
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
(hell, are you sure that TextField allows multiple lines at all? A lot of GUI widgets don't.)
18:15
<@AnnoDomini>
Ah, there. Putting it in a TextArea worked.
18:17
<@AnnoDomini>
Heey, this is actually starting to look like a proper NPC generation utility. :D
18:17
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Written in Java ;.;
18:18
<@AnnoDomini>
((I'd rather eat a toad than write it in C++. <_<))
18:18
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
(so use Lua, or Python :P )
18:18
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
(or bash >.>)
18:19
<@AnnoDomini>
((I know three languages good enough to use them for stuff - C++, Java and mIRC script.))
18:19
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
(oh dear)
18:20
<@AnnoDomini>
I'm not using mIRC 'cause input would be hell.
18:20
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
And C++ is, well, C++.
18:20 * AnnoDomini nods.
18:24
<@AnnoDomini>
I'm writing it because none of the NPC generators I know of do what I need done. I don't need a complete statblock complete with all the details - I just need the boring stuff like formatting, calculation and stuff like that there done for me. I can take care of the rest myself.
18:24 * ToxicFrog|W`rkn nods
18:24
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
See, to my mind, this is an ideal place to learn a new language~
18:24
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Big enough to be interesting, small enough to be easily mastered, and fairly language-agnostic in purpose.
18:27
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Certainly I would consider learning a new language to be easier than wrestling with Java :P
18:29
<@AnnoDomini>
Java is the simplest language I have experienced so far, though.
18:30
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
...
18:30
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
That's, um.
18:30 * ToxicFrog|W`rkn searches for the right words
18:30
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Tragic?
18:30
<@AnnoDomini>
It might be. I can't really tell.
18:31
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Java is a hideously complicated and verbose bondage-and-discipline language.
18:32
<@AnnoDomini>
Bondage-and-discipline?
18:32
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/B/bondage-and-discipline-language.html
18:35
<@AnnoDomini>
So... you can't really do anything outside what the author thought you should be doing with it?
18:36
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Pretty much. Or, more generally, you can do anything but the style in which you have to do that is the one which the language author thought was the "right" style.
18:37
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
(a problem that Python also has, but to a far lesser extent)
18:39
<@AnnoDomini>
Are there any languages where that isn't the case? I mean, if the author made the language, it would imply that he might not have thought of usage beyond what he considers 'correct'...
18:39
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
(in fairness, Java does have a bunch of cool features, mostly related to introspection and runtime loading/resolution - McM knows far more about that than I do - but they're all a pain in the ass to use, because everything in Java is a pain in the ass to use.)
18:40
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Er. Rephrase the question?
18:42
<@AnnoDomini>
Hm.
18:44
<@AnnoDomini>
When the author creates a language, he must assume some things as correct, and some things as incorrect. Otherwise, he wouldn't get anywhere. I understand that this might happen to a lesser or greater extent. Are there any languages in which the author has made it very easy to be correct, or very hard to be incorrect when coding?
18:51
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
That...depends on whether you're talking about lexis/syntax or program structure. I am talking about the latter, primarily, in which case Lisp and its derivatives, Lua, Python, arguably C/++...
18:51
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
If the former, there's TECO, in which any input string is a valid program, but you probably don't want to use that :P
18:51 * AnnoDomini chuckles.
18:53
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
It's kind of hard to talk about this sort of thing if you've never used a HLL @.@
18:54
<@AnnoDomini>
!dic HLL
18:54
<+KarmaBot>
[AnnoDomini] http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/HLL
18:57
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
High Level Language.
18:57
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Commonly considered to include C++ and Java, which I consider Wrong; they are mid-level languages.
18:58
<@AnnoDomini>
What's high-level, then?
18:59 * AnnoDomini is trying to detect an empty string, and so far failing. I wonder what length() will return, will try that.
19:00
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
I'd say closures, introspection, and runtime code generation (from source or, better yet, ASTs) are a must. Macros are helpful (Lisp) but not mandatory (Lua, Python).
19:01
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
length() should(?will) return zero.
19:01
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
You can also use .equals("")
19:01
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
I'm not sure if == will work on Java strings, it's been a while.
19:01
<@AnnoDomini>
It's not working for me, anyway.
19:03
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
I can't remember if, in Java, == compares by value (equals) or by reference (is) on strings.
19:03
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Java operators: abandon all sanity, ye who enter~
19:08 * EvilDarkLord locks Anno into a room with a manual and a certain snake, for more sanity.
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19:16
<@AnnoDomini>
That's more like it. I managed to fix my fan.
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19:20 * AnnoDomini also eats the snake and makes tools out of its bones, which he uses to break out of the locked room.
19:22
<@AnnoDomini>
Even with ventilation provided by the fan, and a draft, it's warm enough in here for me to go shirtless.
19:32
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Snake. Yet another thing I've never eaten.
19:33
<@AnnoDomini>
Probably tastes like chicken.
19:34
<@AnnoDomini>
And chicken tastes like chicken, recursively.
19:34
<@AnnoDomini>
:P
19:35 * ToxicFrog|W`rkn pokes TheWatcher
19:36
<@TheWatcher>
Hm?
19:36
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
What's the Perl operator to apply a s///-expression to the value of a variable?
19:37
<@TheWatcher>
$foo =~ s///flags; you mean?
19:37
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Will that change the value of foo?
19:37
<@TheWatcher>
Yes
19:37
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Yes, then.
19:37
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Thankye.
19:38
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
 $FileRequired =~ s/\\/\//g; # this will replace all \ with / ?
19:38
<@TheWatcher>
Yup
19:38
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Yay
19:46 Forj [~Forj@Nightstar-17168.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Gone]
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19:59 * ToxicFrog|W`rkn idly puts together a small bash function to do mass find-replace ops in place
20:58
<@jerith>
TF: sed?
20:58
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Yeah, the key is the easy in-placeness.
20:58
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
And now having to construct the whole sed-expression.
20:58
<@jerith>
sed -i 's#\#/#' <files>
20:59 * jerith hugs sed -i.
20:59
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
...-i blregjashdgjkhsjfh
20:59
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Well, that makes part of the script redundant~
20:59
<@jerith>
sed -i 's#\\#/#' <files> rather.
21:00
<@jerith>
Changing the delimiter doesn't change the escaping on the backslash.
21:03
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Indeed.
21:04
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
And I use ; as the delimiter in this script anyways, since # can easily show up.
21:04 * jerith nods.
21:05
<@ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Anyways, back to gtk-server awesomeness
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--- Log closed Thu Jul 19 00:00:29 2007
code logs -> 2007 -> Wed, 18 Jul 2007< code.20070717.log - code.20070719.log >
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