| --- Log opened Sat Apr 21 00:00:05 2007 |
| --- Day changed Sat Apr 21 2007 |
| 00:00 | < MyCatVerbs> | "Hello, World!" <-- 226KB, stripped. |
| 00:00 | <@Vornicus> | :( |
| 00:00 | <@jerith> | Isn't it bundling a complete GC'd runtime with everything? |
| 00:00 | < MyCatVerbs> | Vornicus: Glasgow Haskell Compiler. |
| 00:00 | <@Vornicus> | Aha |
| 00:00 | < MyCatVerbs> | jerith: possibly, but it damn well oughtn't. That's what shared libraries are for. |
| 00:01 | < MyCatVerbs> | Oh, you're right, it is. The only shared libs it's linked against are libm, libc and (for obvious reasons) ld.so |
| 00:02 | < MyCatVerbs> | Rather disappointing. That's a great way to burn up swapfile, y'know? :/ |
| 00:49 | | Chalcedon is now known as ChalcyAFK |
| 00:56 | <@McMartin> | MCV: Non-C languages have cooties! |
| 01:01 | < MyCatVerbs> | McMartin: I'd rather they had something like a libboehmgc |
| 01:02 | < MyCatVerbs> | McMartin: also, almost all C-like languages have a particular common form of retardation: non-nesting block comments. |
| 01:02 | < MyCatVerbs> | (diediediedieediediediediedie) |
| 01:02 | <@Vornicus> | And many non C-like languages don't have block comments at all |
| 01:04 | | * McMartin uses """ for that in Python~ |
| 01:04 | <@Vornicus> | Which doesn't nest either~ |
| 01:04 | < MyCatVerbs> | Vornicus: oooh. Such as? oO |
| 01:04 | <@Vornicus> | Python, for one |
| 01:04 | <@McMartin> | Perl. Shell. |
| 01:04 | <@McMartin> | Everything in the universe with # comments, basically~ |
| 01:05 | <@Vornicus> | Ruby has them but it is an incredible hack. |
| 01:06 | < MyCatVerbs> | Ahhh, but of course. My bad, yes. |
| 01:06 | <@Vornicus> | SQL doesn't have them, nor PostScript (but you can fake it with a thing you leave on the stack or pop off the stack immediately) |
| 01:06 | <@jerith> | Alternatively, you can select and M-; (or the equivalent in any decent editor). |
| 01:06 | < MyCatVerbs> | ... |
| 01:07 | < MyCatVerbs> | Comments in SQL would be kinda, uh, bad, surely? |
| 01:07 | <@jerith> | I should probably stop browsing facebook and go to sleep. :-. |
| 01:07 | <@jerith> | :-/ |
| 01:07 | <@Vornicus> | MCV: Why? |
| 01:07 | < MyCatVerbs> | jerith: heh, I have the opposite problem with facebook. |
| 01:08 | < MyCatVerbs> | jerith: I log in, poke about for two minutes, think, "Okay, now what?" then get bored and log off. |
| 01:08 | <@jerith> | I was actually going through a list of the four hundred million people one of my cousins has as friends to see if I know any of them. |
| 01:08 | < MyCatVerbs> | Vornicus: 'cuz you're sending them to database servers as requests - you usually won't want comments eating up bandwidth and CPu time. |
| 01:09 | <@Vornicus> | Well, except that you also use SQL code to define tables, constraints, and procedures |
| 01:09 | <@jerith> | How is that different to comments in any other interpreted language? |
| 01:09 | < MyCatVerbs> | Vornicus: also, when do you ever use an SQL query that's not buried inside of another programming language, thus enabling you to write the comments in the outer language. |
| 01:09 | < MyCatVerbs> | s/./?/ |
| 01:09 | <@Vornicus> | Never mind that the hard part of SQL, both in CPU and bandwidth, is the actual data getting |
| 01:09 | <@jerith> | MyCatVerbs: database creation/init scripts, for one. |
| 01:09 | < MyCatVerbs> | Yes, but once-off and ad-hoc stuff you do by hand anyway and it'd be silly to bother commenting it. |
| 01:10 | <@jerith> | MyCatVerbs: For shame! |
| 01:10 | <@Vornicus> | MCV obviously hasn't done much database programming. |
| 01:10 | < MyCatVerbs> | btbutbutbu |
| 01:10 | <@jerith> | Look at pretty much any PHP-based database-backed web system. |
| 01:10 | < MyCatVerbs> | Except for those you do by hand, surely you only ever issue the SQL statements from within another programming language anyway? |
| 01:10 | <@jerith> | (And a goodly chunk of the non-php ones as well.) |
| 01:11 | <@jerith> | mysql -u user -p database < database_init.sql |
| 01:11 | <@jerith> | That's an installation step in a lot of stuff. |
| 01:11 | < MyCatVerbs> | And what's the point of putting comments in the SQL when you can more easily put them in the shellscript or python or PHP or whatever/ |
| 01:11 | < MyCatVerbs> | Er, ? |
| 01:12 | <@jerith> | Because you don't necessarily want to leave a block of SQL just for a comment. |
| 01:12 | < MyCatVerbs> | jerith: oh, fair enough. |
| 01:12 | < MyCatVerbs> | ? |
| 01:12 | <@jerith> | And you want inline comments on hairy queries. |
| 01:12 | <@jerith> | Ooh, "hairy query" -- I like that. |
| 01:12 | < MyCatVerbs> | #comments \n sql.request("SELECT foo FROM bar WHERE baz"); |
| 01:13 | <@jerith> | For example, it's not uncommon for a query in one of our systems to be ten lines long. |
| 01:13 | <@jerith> | Lots of joins and such. |
| 01:13 | <@jerith> | And the occasional subquery. |
| 01:13 | < MyCatVerbs> | oO |
| 01:13 | < MyCatVerbs> | Oh, okay, suddenly the need seems clear. |
| 01:14 | <@jerith> | And we're not even a big database. |
| 01:14 | <@Vornicus> | jerith: how do you define a line? Usually I put each table, field, and condition on a separate line. |
| 01:14 | <@jerith> | Depends. Usually a join or condition gets its own. |
| 01:15 | <@jerith> | I'm not counting trivial one-word lines. For example, "WHERE" usually gets its own in anything that big. |
| 01:15 | <@jerith> | But I stay as far away from that stuff as I can. |
| 01:15 | <@jerith> | My db-fu is weak. |
| 01:16 | <@jerith> | I can't give you a real example for obvious reasons, and making up a fake one would be too much effort. |
| 01:17 | <@jerith> | 00:51 < pjd> http://sob.apotheon.org/?p=249 <- most useless programming journal post, ever |
| 01:17 | <@jerith> | "Someone wrote a Y-combinator in Ruby, but I think it's ugly so I'll reformat it." |
| 01:17 | <@Vornicus> | heh |
| 01:17 | <@jerith> | Really, that's all he did. |
| 01:18 | <@jerith> | He seems not to even know what a Y-combinator *is*. |
| 01:19 | <@jerith> | (I used to know how it worked, but that part of my brain was reused for perl hacking recently.) |
| 01:19 | < MyCatVerbs> | ...well. |
| 01:19 | < MyCatVerbs> | Did he break it? |
| 01:19 | <@jerith> | Anyways, to bed with me again. |
| 01:19 | <@jerith> | Nope. |
| 01:19 | < MyCatVerbs> | I mean, did it work afterwards? |
| 01:19 | < MyCatVerbs> | Sleep well. |
| 01:20 | < MyCatVerbs> | If it looks nicer afterwards and it hasn't been broken then, well, harmless at worst. ^^ |
| 01:20 | <@jerith> | He reindented it and swapped a couple of "{}" for "do end". |
| 01:20 | < MyCatVerbs> | ... |
| 01:20 | < MyCatVerbs> | Okay, reindenting is admissable. Fine. |
| 01:20 | <@jerith> | The original version was uglier, but a little clearer. |
| 01:20 | <@jerith> | The compact version makes it seem more magic. |
| 01:21 | < MyCatVerbs> | Replacing perfectly legible {} with stupid short words deserves to have a carving knife through the skull. |
| 01:21 | <@jerith> | I find do/end is better in a lot of circumstances. |
| 01:21 | <@jerith> | I usually use it whenever the block is more than a couple of lines long. |
| 01:21 | | * MyCatVerbs haet do/end. |
| 01:22 | < MyCatVerbs> | {} stands out much better, to my eyes. |
| 01:22 | | * jerith really *REALLY* goes to sleep now. |
| 01:22 | <@jerith> | I CAME, I SLEP, I CONQUERED. |
| 01:23 | < MyCatVerbs> | G'ni.. |
| 01:23 | <@jerith> | (Because Vorn is just that cool.) |
| 01:24 | <@Vornicus> | (heh) |
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| 03:54 | | * Reiver wonders what the hell to write as a SourceForge registration description. |
| 03:55 | <@Reiver> | "Yet Another XCOM Clone Only Ours Is Better Honest" >.> |
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| 04:16 | <@McMartin> | "$NAME is a turn-based tactical combat game inspired by games such as Microprose's X-COM and Squaresoft's Final Fantasy Tactics." |
| 04:19 | <@Vornicus> | Heh, we don't even touch FFT's stuff. |
| 04:19 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, but there's a minimum charcount in the description. |
| 04:19 | <@Vornicus> | 200 |
| 04:29 | | Vornicus is now known as Vornicus-Latens |
| 04:39 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 04:44 | <@Reiver> | Speaking of, McM, are you interested in poking your nose into an XCOM-alike? |
| 04:44 | <@McMartin> | Too many projects as it is |
| 04:44 | <@McMartin> | I can help test, maybe. |
| 04:44 | | * Reiver nods, thought as much. |
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| 08:30 | <@Serah> | What I really miss from the old Xcom is the feeling, the style. |
| 08:30 | <@Serah> | And for the Xcom clones to replicate it just slightly, instead of making all their graphics flashy and stuff. |
| 08:30 | <@Serah> | Replicate it without mimicing it. |
| 08:31 | <@Reiver> | You mean replicate the vaugely gritty look instead of making all the good guys and aliens polished with pretty render flares? |
| 08:37 | <@Serah> | Yeah. |
| 08:37 | <@Serah> | Making it dark and ominous so you don't know what the hell is around the next corner. |
| 08:37 | <@Serah> | And making it actually scary. |
| 08:38 | <@Reiver> | Yeah. Shiny polished graphics hurt that. |
| 08:39 | <@Reiver> | As do "I wish teh game let you do X Y Z" - the key to balance is to go "Sure! You can do X Y Z. Incidentally, this means A B C happen too..." "...Fuck." |
| 08:39 | <@Reiver> | Like our Nasty Evil Idea for IR nightvision goggles. |
| 08:39 | <@Reiver> | Sure! You can have nightvision! |
| 08:39 | <@Reiver> | ...But what if something like Crysalids don't show up? |
| 08:40 | <@Reiver> | Muahaha. Night-time terror missions stay scary. >.> |
| 08:40 | <@Reiver> | (In fact they get even worse, because unless you're doubly-careful, it will be easy to completely forget to use flares. And you'll remember about the point you lose three men.) |
| 08:41 | <@Reiver> | Not strictly just that. |
| 08:41 | <@Reiver> | But, you know. That general idea. |
| 08:41 | <@Serah> | Chrysalids are sharkbait, I'm much more afraid of cyberdisks ( Which, being a construct, shouldn't show up either. ) |
| 08:41 | <@Serah> | Even though all my men usually use laser pistols. |
| 08:41 | <@Reiver> | (Well, they might show up as 'colder'. But such things can be worked out.) |
| 08:42 | <@Reiver> | (The general principle stands - for every advantage you put in, you need to have a catch. Be it there, or somewhere else, Don't Make It Easy.) |
| 08:43 | <@Serah> | Going to let guns jam too? |
| 08:43 | <@Reiver> | Dunno yet. Might. |
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| 08:43 | <@Reiver> | But most guns are pretty reliable these days, so it would have to be carefully thought about. |
| 08:44 | <@Serah> | Make it a rare occurrance. |
| 08:44 | <@Serah> | ½% or something. |
| 08:44 | <@Reiver> | (Yes, they can jam. This is usually when they haven't been serviced regularly; something that's less likely in a glorified SWAT team.) |
| 08:44 | <@Serah> | And likely depending on difficulty. |
| 08:44 | <@Reiver> | Hee. It's a thought. |
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| 11:09 | | * Vornicus-Latens remembers images of somebody abusing a gun as hard as they could, doing all sorts of evil shit to it -burying it, setting it on fire, all sorts of stuff... then stripping it, cleaning it, and firing it. |
| 11:10 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | and it worked |
| 11:10 | <@jerith> | That sounds like a Glock demo I heard about. |
| 11:11 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | I think it was a glock, yes |
| 11:11 | <@jerith> | I like Glocks. |
| 11:11 | <@jerith> | Although I'd like them better if they didn't put the mag release just where my thumb sits in a comfortable grip. |
| 11:18 | | * Vornicus-Latens sorts laundry |
| --- Log closed Sat Apr 21 11:24:22 2007 |
| --- Log opened Sat Apr 21 11:24:56 2007 |
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| 21:33 | < Janus> | I have a question... if you were playing a word game, should words like "valour, honour, vigour, panick, publick" be allowed? |
| 21:35 | <@Vornicus> | Depends on the game |
| 21:35 | < AnnoDomini> | Methinks British and English spellings should both be allowed. |
| 21:36 | < Janus> | The game is like scramble, in that the more and uncommon letters you use, the higher the score. |
| 21:36 | <@Vornicus> | And on the locale. I would accept them as alternate spellings in games which ask for words; I would not put them in an american game of "guess the word" |
| 21:36 | <@Vornicus> | If it's like scrabble, I would examine the Scrabble Dictionary to find an answer. |
| 21:38 | < Attilla> | Depends if you're using Webster or Oxford English for your dictionary, i'd surmise |
| 21:38 | < Janus> | Personally, I like the idea of using both, but since I'm using the English Scramble's scoring and rarity stats, I didn't want to upset the balance there. |
| 21:38 | <@Vornicus> | (I mean, the official one) |
| 21:38 | < Attilla> | Oh... there's an official one? |
| 21:38 | <@Vornicus> | yes. |
| 21:38 | < Attilla> | Never knew. |
| 21:39 | < Janus> | Webster English can kiss the grits. |
| 21:39 | <@Vornicus> | Hasbro.com says that "valour" is in the scrabble dictionary |
| 21:40 | <@Vornicus> | "publick" however is not. |
| 21:40 | <@Vornicus> | nor panick |
| 21:40 | < Attilla> | That's because those terms are now archaic? |
| 21:40 | <@Vornicus> | Or obsolete |
| 21:40 | < Attilla> | At least, putting a k after a hard c |
| 21:41 | < Attilla> | ...in most cases |
| 21:41 | <@Vornicus> | The only time I see "panick" is as the root of "panicking", which is archaic |
| 21:41 | <@Vornicus> | or "panicked", which is rare but still occasionally seen |
| 21:44 | <@Vornicus> | Janus, how much do you know about OpenGL? |
| 21:44 | < Janus> | I know that it's manual has worsed my eye-sight by 20 yards~ Why do you ask..? |
| 21:45 | <@Vornicus> | I'm in need of someone with more experience than I have to teach me how to do texturing |
| 21:46 | < Janus> | Heh, sorry. Still one chapter away from that. |
| 21:46 | | * AnnoDomini idly thinks of 'orck'. :P |
| 21:46 | <@Vornicus> | Heh |
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| 22:12 | <@gnolam> | Vornicus: how to do texturing? |
| 22:12 | <@gnolam> | Specifically? |
| 22:16 | <@Vornicus> | well, loading up and applying textures, for one thing. |
| 22:18 | <@gnolam> | Loading sort of depends on what you're using. Applying is easy. |
| 22:18 | | MyCatVerbs is now known as MyCatBurnsFood |
| 22:19 | <@gnolam> | As easy as enabling GL_TEXTURE_2D and, before rendering your textured surfaces, glBindTexture(GL_TEXTURE_2D,tileset); |
| 22:19 | <@gnolam> | ERr. |
| 22:19 | <@gnolam> | Mispaste. |
| 22:19 | <@gnolam> | glBindTexture(). |
| 22:21 | <@gnolam> | Loading is more complex. But look up glGenTextures(), glTexParameter() and gluBuild2DMipmaps(). |
| 22:22 | <@gnolam> | In short, it's "Generate texture name", "Bind texture name", "Specify options", "Build with selected format". |
| 22:24 | <@gnolam> | If you don't want mipmaps you can go with plain glTexImage2D instead of gluBuild2DMipmaps(). |
| 22:26 | | * gnolam goes back to movies, nachos and cola. |
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| 23:12 | <@McMartin> | Sable has some nice (and stealable) code for turning PNGs into textures. |
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| --- Log closed Sun Apr 22 00:00:35 2007 |