| --- Log opened Mon Apr 16 00:00:53 2007 |
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| 09:02 | < Reiver> | Okay, so biting the bullet, let's say. |
| 09:03 | < Reiver> | Any reccomendations for windows IDE and compilers for C++? |
| 09:14 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 09:16 | < Mahal> | This isn't horribly helpful, but I used one with the name "blood" in it's name and it was free. |
| 09:18 | < Mahal> | Ah-0hah |
| 09:18 | < Mahal> | www.bloodshed.net |
| 09:18 | < Mahal> | http://www.bloodshed.net/ |
| 09:18 | <@Vornicus> | DevC++ has seen some stuff |
| 09:19 | <@Vornicus> | Also, Eclipse has a C++ module. I don't really know how good it is, but it probably steals liberally from the Java one, which has incredible analysis tools. |
| 09:19 | < Reiver> | hm |
| 09:20 | <@Vornicus> | (in addition, any toys one makes for Eclipse can be used on any OS) |
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| 12:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | Seconded on DevC++, never used Eclipse, but on the whole I'd say you're better off not using C++ ?? |
| 12:47 | < Reiver> | TF: Actually, we were specifically using it so that we could incorporate Lua~ |
| 12:47 | <@Vornicus> | Well, C or C++ |
| 12:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | Heh. |
| 12:47 | < Reiver> | We were also wondering if you would be interested in helping in our Insidious Plans, if you so felt like advising or such. |
| 12:48 | | * Reiver 's main concern is he'd really rather an OO programming language - perhaps not strictly, but being able to do such things cleanly is a big help in this sort of venture. |
| 12:48 | < Reiver> | Hence why I mentioned C++ (Which I know can) rather than C (Which I have no idea). |
| 12:49 | < Reiver> | I note I haven't used either in approximately six years, but half the point is I need to learn something... >.> |
| 12:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 12:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | Interestingly, I just finished writing another OO framework for Lua yesterday ?? |
| 12:53 | < Reiver> | Well, granted. |
| 12:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | Anyways. In that case, you might want to look into tolua++ |
| 12:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | (pity we can't gank the Silent Storm engine for this, but AFAIK there's no mod tools ;.;) |
| 12:53 | < Reiver> | In any case, we were arguing about... XDEF, I think we're calling it now Vorn? :p |
| 12:53 | <@Vornicus> | X Defense |
| 12:54 | | * Serah dances with ToxicFrog. |
| 12:54 | < Reiver> | (Our homebrew XCOM:UFO v2.0, if you will.) |
| 12:54 | | * ToxicFrog dances with Serah |
| 12:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or rather, there are, but they're of the "adding new items and maps" kind rather than the "replacing the world map and adding random map generation capability" kind. |
| 12:55 | | * Reiver nods. |
| 12:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which makes me sad, because it's an incredibly kickass engine and would be ideal for an X-COM alike. |
| 12:55 | < Reiver> | We keep getting stuck on the basics -- like, we know what a ground tile is. |
| 12:55 | <@Vornicus> | But we're, uh, being, uh, ambitious |
| 12:55 | < Reiver> | But we keep getting stuck on, uh, little things like "Where the hell do walls fit into all this?" |
| 12:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: accurate bullet modeling, fully 3d, completely deformable terrain on a per-brick basis, hearable enemies ambitious? |
| 12:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Because that's what the S^2 engine does. |
| 12:56 | | * ToxicFrog flails at Nival |
| 12:56 | <@Vornicus> | Well, okay, no |
| 12:56 | <@Vornicus> | But we were thinking something like "Luna and Mars are navigable worlds" |
| 12:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | -anyways-. Can't really stay to talk because I have an exam in 35 minutes, but I should be back in three hours or so. |
| 12:57 | <@Vornicus> | ok |
| 12:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | And then we can plot. |
| 12:57 | <@Vornicus> | vwoot |
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| 16:53 | <@McMartin> | ... xkcd wins |
| 16:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 16:56 | <@McMartin> | How'd the exam go? |
| 16:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok, but not great. Totally blanked on the last question. |
| 16:59 | <@McMartin> | Mmm. |
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| 18:32 | | * ToxicFrog implements ResourcePool |
| 18:34 | | * ToxicFrog also determines that RapidSVN sucks. |
| 18:37 | <@McMartin> | "RapidSVN"? |
| 18:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | Frontend to SVN. |
| 18:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | And it doesn't suck, I was using it wrong. |
| 18:47 | | * ToxicFrog tries to figure out how to move stuff that svn thinks is associated with one repo into another one |
| 18:48 | <@jerith> | rsync -avC, svn add |
| 18:48 | <@jerith> | Unless history is important... |
| 18:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | Er, no. |
| 18:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | I mean, I have a bunch of files. |
| 18:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | I want to add them to repo A. |
| 18:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | However, svn thinks I want to add them to repo B, which doesn't exist. |
| 18:48 | <@jerith> | Oh. |
| 18:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | I can't seem to figure out how to either (a) tell it to cancel the attempted add or (b) tell it to add to repo A instead |
| 18:49 | <@jerith> | Check out the relevant bits of repo A in a different place and add it therE? |
| 18:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | There *is nothing in repo A* |
| 18:49 | <@jerith> | Ah. |
| 18:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | This is the first checkin to the repo. |
| 18:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or will be if I can figure out how. |
| 18:49 | <@jerith> | You should have an empty repo, though. |
| 18:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | 'svn remove' will delete the files from my hard disk, which I don't want... |
| 18:49 | <@jerith> | svn revert? |
| 18:50 | <@jerith> | Still seems like the best thing to do is check out the (empty) repo A somewhere else and copy the files by hand. |
| 18:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | Is there a command to remove files from version control entirely? |
| 18:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | Other than [[ find . -name '.svn' | xargs rm -rf ]] ? |
| 18:51 | <@McMartin> | copy it elsewhere, svn remove, copy it back. |
| 18:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | ... |
| 18:51 | | * ToxicFrog flails |
| 18:51 | <@McMartin> | What do you mean here by "remove from version control"? |
| 18:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | I have a working copy. I want to remove all svn metadata in it so that it becomes just another collection of files. |
| 18:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | I think the reason it wanted to add stuff to B is that there's an obsolete .svn referring to it in the parent directory, so it went "oh, this is part of a working copy associated with B" |
| 18:52 | <@McMartin> | svn export what you want? |
| 18:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | However, B has been obsoleted. |
| 18:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hmm. That makes a copy... |
| 18:53 | | * ToxicFrog does not want to reshuffle half his goddamn source tree just to get rid of some old .svn files ;.; |
| 18:53 | <@jerith> | rsync -avC working_dir new_dir |
| 18:54 | <@McMartin> | ... so, kill the .svn directories. |
| 18:54 | <@jerith> | The -C in there tells it to ignore all CVS/SVN metadata. |
| 18:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: that will actually work? |
| 18:54 | <@McMartin> | That's where all the metadata is. |
| 18:54 | <@jerith> | Or find -name '.svn' -delete (or whatever the syntax is. |
| 18:54 | <@jerith> | I prefer the former since it's non-destructive. |
| 18:55 | | * ToxicFrog deploys xargs |
| 18:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | I'm used to P4, which keeps information about working copies on the server. |
| 18:55 | <@McMartin> | No, SVN is like CVS that way; it's all on the client. |
| 18:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | I have never used CVS. |
| 18:56 | <@McMartin> | o_O |
| 18:56 | | * Vornicus has never used CVS either |
| 18:56 | <@McMartin> | I'm astonished you've made it this long without being forced to use a devtree version of some SF project. |
| 18:56 | <@jerith> | SVN has the advantage that you can do a lot of stuff offline. |
| 18:56 | <@McMartin> | Since SF didn't have SVN until a month or two ago. |
| 18:56 | <@McMartin> | And now, seminar |
| 18:56 | <@jerith> | But I'm told p4 is better at pretty much everything else. |
| 18:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: well, occasionally yes, and by that I mean 'once every year or two' |
| 18:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | But in that case they give you the cvs command right there, I copypaste it into bash and bam, I have a source tree. |
| 18:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | This is not the same as using CVS. |
| 18:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | And, yeah, having fiddled with SVN some I vastly prefer P4. |
| 18:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | SVN's lack of automatic locking gives me the jibblies, too. |
| 19:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | (and means I keep forgetting to commit, because there's no changelist for me to look at and say "oh, I have uncomitted changes") |
| 19:00 | <@jerith> | svn stat |
| 19:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | (although that's not really related to locking...) |
| 19:00 | <@jerith> | svn stat is very much your friend. :-) |
| 19:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | jerith: the point is, in P4 I can create a changelist, and associate with it a *description* and a set of files. |
| 19:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | (not all of which have to be currently changed) |
| 19:01 | <@jerith> | Ah. |
| 19:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | So I can go "ok, here is a task I am working, here are all the files I have changed/will need to change to accomplish it" |
| 19:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | And eventually it's done, and I go "commit" and it checks in just the files in the changelist. |
| 19:02 | <@jerith> | Hmm... |
| 19:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which means that after finishing a subgoal, I can easily check it in even if the files are intermixed with edited files for /other/ subgoals elsewhere in the source tree. |
| 19:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | AFAICT, neither SVN nor any of its frontends gives you a way to define a set of files that you can monitor and check in as a group without affecting the rest of the project. |
| 19:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh, hey. |
| 19:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | They're working on changelist support for some future release of subversion. |
| 19:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | http://svn.collab.net/repos/svn/trunk/notes/changelist-design.txt |
| 19:04 | <@jerith> | Cool. :-) |
| 19:04 | <@jerith> | We tend to work in sub-branchs and then merge them afterwards. |
| 19:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | Branching I have very limited experience with, and understanding of. |
| 19:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | AIUI branching basically forks off a copy of the repo which can be manipulated independently, and offers an easy to way to merge changes made in the branch back into the original? |
| 19:08 | <@jerith> | Pretty much. |
| 19:08 | <@jerith> | SVN does it as more of a copy-on-write operation, though. |
| 19:08 | <@jerith> | So branches are cheap. |
| 19:09 | <@jerith> | Merging can suck, though. |
| 19:09 | <@jerith> | But that applies to anything, really. |
| 19:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | And so, instead of changelists, you create an entirely new *branch* for each subgoal and then merge it back in when finished? o.O |
| 19:09 | <@jerith> | Except systems that do global locks. And that sucks more. |
| 19:09 | <@jerith> | Yeah. |
| 19:09 | <@jerith> | And then kill the branch. |
| 19:09 | <@jerith> | It's still there in the history, though. |
| 19:10 | <@jerith> | And on that note, I'm off home. |
| 19:10 | | * ToxicFrog ponders svn.tigris.org |
| 19:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | 1.43 is out, no changelist support yet though ;.; |
| 19:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | I'm still running 1.32 o.O |
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| 19:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok, I need terminology. |
| 19:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | SS1 objects are divided into a three-level tree: the first level is weapons/containers/critters/etc, the second level is fullauto/semiauto/beam/projects/etc, and the bottom is the item itself. |
| 19:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | TSSHP calls these class, subclass, and type respectively, so the sparqbeam is class Weapons, subclass Beam, type Sparq. |
| 19:40 | <@Vornicus> | But those are kinda loaded words in CS |
| 19:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | I think those are terrible names but am having trouble coming up with better ones. |
| 19:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes, exactly. |
| 19:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | I think perhaps Category for the top level. |
| 19:40 | <@Vornicus> | Family Genus Species |
| 19:42 | <@gnolam> | Ooh, hacking Silent Storm? |
| 19:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...no. |
| 19:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | System Shock. |
| 19:43 | <@Vornicus> | System Shock |
| 19:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | I was unaware that S^2 used the same object classification system. |
| 19:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or did you expand SS1 incorrectly? |
| 19:48 | <@Vornicus> | Considering that Silent Storm was mentioned earlier today, I'd say it was context-sensitive acronym expansion |
| 19:48 | <@gnolam> | I was reading the backscroll. |
| 19:49 | <@gnolam> | So... backscroll, mention of Silent Storm, jump to ~15 lines ago - BOOM! |
| 19:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 19:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | Typically, Silent Storm is S^2, Sentinels is S^3, and the latest one is S&H. |
| 19:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hmm. Family/genus/species might work, but I don't really like it... |
| 20:29 | <@McMartin> | Category, Subcategory, Model. |
| 20:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | Model is also a loaded word. |
| 20:32 | <@McMartin> | Oh, right, graphics. |
| 20:32 | <@McMartin> | "Mark"? |
| 20:32 | <@McMartin> | That's more for "v1 vs. v2" |
| 20:33 | <@McMartin> | Cat, Subcat, Kitten! |
| 20:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | Pfft |
| 20:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | Very tempting, but I want this code to be maintainable |
| 20:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | (besides, sorting is difficult if they all get 10s) |
| 20:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | Cat, subcat, and type would work. |
| 20:36 | <@McMartin> | Type is still loaded. |
| 20:36 | <@McMartin> | My labmate suggests "kind" |
| 20:36 | <@McMartin> | Which is only overloaded if you're a Young Earth Creationist! |
| 20:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well, yes, it's loaded, but in this case it's being used appropriately. |
| 20:37 | <@McMartin> | Aha. |
| 20:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...or, actually, hmm. |
| 20:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | Is Sparq: (a) a type, and the ones you find in game are instances of this type, or (b) an instance of BeamWeapon which defines the stats used by the ones in game? |
| 20:38 | <@McMartin> | My style tends towards (b). |
| 20:38 | <@McMartin> | But we discussed my hatred of inheritance yesterday. |
| 20:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 20:39 | <@McMartin> | yarglef?d |
| 20:39 | | * Vornicus returns from the store for the second time today, finishes making dinner. |
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| 20:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | The way the members are laid out... |
| 20:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | Each object has: |
| 20:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | - a set of stats common to all objects, such as mass |
| 20:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | - a set of stats common to that category, such as firing rate |
| 20:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | - a set of stats common that subcategory, such as power draw |
| 20:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | And then some additional subcategory-specific info that's stored in the map, like currently loaded ammo count. |
| 20:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | So what I'm inclined to say is that Object defines a bunch of members, CategoryObject defines a bunch more, SubcategoryObject defines even more, SpecificSubcategoryObject provides values for them all and declares most of them const, and the map then instantiates it a bunch of times and provides new values for the stuff that isn't const. |
| 20:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | (I should clarify: this is my take on Shock's existing behaviour, not a proposed reimplementation) |
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| 21:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | Thoughts? |
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| 21:14 | < MyDarkstarVerbs> | ToxicFrog: I think I'd like a drink. |
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| 23:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | 2.2.3 Subcategory 0/2: Projectile Weapons |
| 23:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | ----------------------------------------- |
| 23:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | This table contains 16 bytes per weapon, for a total of 32: |
| 23:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | 0000 byte[8] common weapon information |
| 23:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | 0008 uint8 ??? |
| 23:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | 0009 uint8 projectile type |
| 23:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | 000A uint8 projectile subcategory |
| 23:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | 000B uint8 projectile category |
| 23:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | 000C byte[4] ??? |
| 23:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | 0010 - |
| 23:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | I didn't consider the implications of this before: could one write a weapon that fires non-projectiles? |
| 23:02 | <@McMartin> | Are beams projectiles? |
| 23:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | No. |
| 23:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | Weapons are either hitscan (no visible beam, hits instantly), beam (visible beam, hits instantly) or projectile (creates a seperate projectile object) |
| 23:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | Such as the magpulse. |
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| 23:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | What I'm thinking here is, could I write a weapon that fires, say, prox mines. |
| 23:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or maintenance bots. |
| 23:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | (beams aren't actually an object of any kind, they're a renderer effect) |
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| --- Log closed Tue Apr 17 00:00:53 2007 |