| --- Log opened Tue Feb 27 00:00:27 2007 |
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| 02:30 | < Mischief> | Code! I have worldbreaking news! |
| 02:30 | < Mischief> | I MADE A BOX! |
| 02:31 | <@Chalcedon> | ...a box of code...? |
| 02:31 | <@Vornicus> | Out of what, cardboard? |
| 02:31 | < Mischief> | .... Nope. I made a single Box. In Milkshape. |
| 02:31 | < Mischief> | Then exported it with a .dts dll I modified, and imported it into the torque Gaming Engine with a reflective texture, successfully. |
| 02:33 | < Mischief> | And that's why I am happy. |
| 02:35 | < Mischief> | Now for the ultimate stress test. 34,000 Prims with many vertexes. >3 |
| 02:36 | <@Reiver> | ...Yes, 34,000 >3 is a fairly reasonable assumption... |
| 02:37 | < Mischief> | Thank you, Reiver. You caught my joke. :) |
| 02:38 | <@Reiver> | I mostly mocked your meaningless smiley. |
| 02:38 | < Mischief> | I was mocking how the smiley looks like a less than sign with a variable. It was subtle. |
| 02:38 | | * Janus is still trying to grasp it. |
| 02:38 | < Mischief> | Anyways, 34,000 prims. |
| 02:39 | < Mischief> | Milkshape has been crashing often |
| 02:39 | < Mischief> | This... Could get ugly |
| 02:40 | < Mischief> | Bloody hell. -.-; It crashed. |
| 02:47 | < Mischief> | Ugh, that's going to drive me nuts. Does anyone know anything about why Milkshape crashes on imports it 'claims' to support? |
| 02:50 | <@Vornicus> | Having never even heard of milkshape outside of this conversation, no. |
| 02:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | Torque. I won't forgive Irrational for that tech demo until Bioshock comes out ;.; |
| 02:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | (Bioshock, if it lives up to its promise, will buy a lot of forgiveness) |
| 02:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | As for Milkshape - it's a modeling program. Used heavily in the HL1 modding scene, as I recall. |
| 02:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | Never used it, though. |
| 02:55 | < Mischief> | Ah-HAH! |
| 02:55 | < Mischief> | Nope, crashed. |
| 02:58 | < Janus> | May I ask a performance question? |
| 02:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 02:59 | | * Janus fiddles with the numbers. |
| 02:59 | | Reiver is now known as ReivClass |
| 03:01 | < Janus> | 120,000 floating point multipications per frame? |
| 03:04 | | * Janus may be overestimating the computer for a change. |
| 03:05 | < Mischief> | I'd answer the question, but I don't know anything other than that your question MAY be related to FPS. |
| 03:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | Janus: even if we assume each FLOP takes 100 cycles - which, with an FPU, it won't - that's 12MHz. |
| 03:07 | < Janus> | So... it's not that expensive afterall? |
| 03:09 | <@Vornicus> | indeed not. |
| 03:09 | <@Vornicus> | actually that's not quite the right number... |
| 03:09 | <@Vornicus> | 960MHz, for 60fps |
| 03:10 | <@Vornicus> | But it's still nowhere near that. |
| 03:10 | <@Vornicus> | FLOPs aren't nearly that expensive |
| 03:11 | < Janus> | ... |
| 03:11 | | * Janus literally WOW. |
| 03:12 | < Mischief> | AWR! *Searches for a script on the TGE forums* Need... Bloom Effect... Script... |
| 03:14 | < Janus> | Strange... it'll handle all that so quickly, yet polling a grayscale 2000 times a frame slowed it down to -2 fps? |
| 03:15 | | * Janus must have /really/ missed it with that function. |
| 03:15 | <@Vornicus> | Quite. |
| 03:16 | < Janus> | Alright, thanks for the input then~ |
| 03:19 | | Janus [~Cerulean@Nightstar-10302.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Jouets de Dieu, jouets de jouets, les jouets de me, na?tre Clair enfant voire.] |
| 03:20 | < Mischief> | Can I have some comments on this? http://www.garagegames.com/products/36/ |
| 03:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | "polling"? |
| 03:23 | < Mischief> | Hm? |
| 03:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...oh, he's gone. |
| 03:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | As for the lighting kit - I don't know, I've never done any hacking on Torque. |
| 03:26 | | * Vornicus writes his own engines! Muaha! |
| 03:27 | < Mischief> | It's not really hacking, it's more plugging in. And Vorn, Why reinvent the wheel? |
| 03:27 | <@Vornicus> | Mainly because there isn't really an engine out there that does what I want. |
| 03:27 | <@Vornicus> | And half the time I'm doing it to learn how. |
| 03:27 | < Mischief> | Or maybe you just don't know how. |
| 03:27 | < Mischief> | Torque seems pretty flexible to me. |
| 03:28 | <@Vornicus> | Does it do webservices? |
| 03:28 | < Mischief> | Granted. I had to learn Torquescript, C++, VC++, ASP.net, and.... |
| 03:28 | < Mischief> | Yeah |
| 03:28 | < Mischief> | It has a lot of network flexibility. |
| 03:28 | <@Vornicus> | Does it do webservices in something I can run on a mac or linux box? |
| 03:28 | < Mischief> | It runs on all three platforms. |
| 03:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | Mischief: and by webservices, he means HTTP. |
| 03:28 | < Mischief> | And comes with Source Code. |
| 03:28 | < Mischief> | Yes, if you program it in. =P |
| 03:28 | <@Vornicus> | With ASP.net? I find this singularly surprising. |
| 03:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | Mischief: so...it has HTTP support, if you write it yourself? |
| 03:29 | < Mischief> | Or it might already. I'm still learning how to use the Engine. |
| 03:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | I do not find this a compelling argument if one is writing a web-based game. |
| 03:29 | < Mischief> | I like the flood ability with waterblocks. |
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| 03:30 | | mode/#code [+o McMartin] by ChanServ |
| 03:30 | < Mischief> | Toxic, I believe you could do it if you ran the server-side code, and wrote the control/Common/and Base game directories in an apache server, then modify the App code, and put the C++ in the Flash file. |
| 03:31 | <@Vornicus> | :( |
| 03:31 | <@McMartin> | o_O |
| 03:31 | | pasli_hancer [~KELEBEK@88.233.87.ns-12623] has joined #Code |
| 03:31 | <@McMartin> | That's quite a line to walk in to. |
| 03:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | ... |
| 03:32 | < pasli_hancer> | hi |
| 03:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | Alternately, you could just run Apache |
| 03:32 | < Mischief> | Well, I'm talking about running Torque through HTTP |
| 03:32 | < Mischief> | It's entirely possible. |
| 03:32 | | * Vornicus runs Apache and Ruby on Rails for this thing. |
| 03:32 | <@McMartin> | This is not the game engine Torque, I take it. |
| 03:32 | < Mischief> | I mean, if you're running something like Runescape, just not cheap. |
| 03:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | I know how easy it is to get attached to an engine, but oddly enough, Torque is not well suited to browser games. |
| 03:32 | < Mischief> | It is. |
| 03:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: it is. |
| 03:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | pasli_hancer: hellow. |
| 03:33 | <@McMartin> | . |
| 03:33 | < Mischief> | By browser, do you mean things like Neopets. (For a crude example) |
| 03:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | Neopets is mostly flash, I thought? |
| 03:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | I mean things like Advance Wars By Web. |
| 03:33 | < Mischief> | It is, but It's still partly- Yeah! |
| 03:33 | < Mischief> | Exactly. |
| 03:34 | <@Vornicus> | (indeed, it was awbw that inspired me along the lines that I am working on today.) |
| 03:34 | <@Vornicus> | (well, that, and the absolutely pitiful versions of web-settlers that are out there) |
| 03:35 | < Mischief> | I'm not that fond of web-browser games, I'm afraid to say. |
| 03:35 | <@McMartin> | (TROGDOR!!!!) |
| 03:36 | <@Vornicus> | (all the ones I've found are java or flash, and aren't persistant; they don't have /any/ available rules variants, and most don't let you play three player games without an AI sitting in) |
| 03:37 | < Mischief> | Heh |
| 03:37 | < Mischief> | I have three games in developement. |
| 03:38 | < Mischief> | I'm aware that was mispelled. |
| 03:38 | <@Vornicus> | Trogdor is a good game. |
| 03:38 | <@Vornicus> | I like Population Tire a lot, too. |
| 03:39 | < Mischief> | One has no online functuality, single player only. The second one is MORPG. The third one... I forgot. :P |
| 03:40 | < Mischief> | Oh right, It's the demo I'm working on now, where I'm just loading with bulk junk data, I'll eventually release it as the demo where I did all my testing for others to use. |
| 03:45 | | * McMartin has two games in development, though only one really counts as "in development" right now. |
| 03:46 | <@Vornicus> | SC2? |
| 03:49 | <@McMartin> | UQM is more in maintenance by now. |
| 03:49 | <@McMartin> | WS is the one In Development. |
| 03:49 | <@Vornicus> | Oh, yes |
| 03:49 | <@Vornicus> | I forgot that one. |
| 03:49 | < Mischief> | Ur-Quan Masters? |
| 03:49 | <@McMartin> | And Sable is Done. |
| 03:49 | <@McMartin> | Yeah |
| 03:49 | < Mischief> | Whoo! |
| 03:49 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, UQM is pretty much my main claim to fame at this point. |
| 03:49 | <@McMartin> | Nobody really cares about Sable or P65. |
| 03:51 | <@McMartin> | P65 does still need a .charset code. |
| 03:52 | < Mischief> | I've been building my game from scratch XP Try making a School building interior all from scratch in 1:1 scale in Milkshape. |
| 04:02 | <@McMartin> | I'm unfamiliar with "Milkshape". |
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| 04:06 | < Mischief> | It's just an old 3D program |
| 04:13 | <@McMartin> | (Also, Sable, P65, and WS are all from scratch) |
| 04:14 | <@McMartin> | (Well, mostly, for WS, which uses a very extensive Standard Library) |
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| 04:15 | < Mischief> | Woah! Idea |
| 04:15 | < Mischief> | Bed |
| 04:15 | < Mischief> | Night everyone |
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| 08:50 | <@Vornicus> | Latest ghostscript seems to fix it. |
| 08:51 | | * Vornicus can now make his command lines smaller and more reliable. |
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| 10:09 | | * Vornicus ponders postscript, seems to have things under control, preparing to make hundreds of images from far fewer source files. |
| 10:32 | <@Vornicus> | terrainColors terrain get 0 get aload pop setcolor |
| 10:38 | <@Vornicus> | This is just plain pleasant. |
| 10:39 | <@Reiver> | Yay Vorn? |
| 10:40 | <@Vornicus> | Yay |
| 11:01 | | * Vornicus extracts the colors from the terrain file, sets the terrain file to do more - like setting the clipping path, filling the background hex, and setting the pen size and color. |
| 11:09 | | * Vornicus wonders if he can actually convince ghostscript to write all these files out from a single ps file. |
| 11:11 | | * Vornicus examines the documentation, determines that it wouldn't be a great idea. |
| 11:12 | <@Vornicus> | TF: -dNOPAUSE and -dBATCH respectively prevent prompts after showpage and prompts after completing a job. |
| 11:16 | | MyCatVerbs [~rb6822@Nightstar-12655.cs.bris.ac.uk] has joined #code |
| 13:00 | <@Vornicus> | ...I really should figure out how to manipulate the stack without resorting to def, so I don't stomp variables when I run a function. |
| 14:02 | | Stein [~nick_anda@202.162.193.ns-3296] has joined #Code |
| 14:03 | < Stein> | hallo serah boleh kenalan ? |
| 14:04 | | * Stein slaps jerith around a bit with a large trout |
| 14:04 | | * Stein slaps jerith around a bit with a large trout |
| 14:05 | | * MyCatVerbs pokes Stein with a pair of trainers. |
| 14:05 | | * AnnoDomini slaps Stein around a bit with a large carp. |
| 14:06 | | * MyCatVerbs slaps Stein around with a carp(4) interface. Multi-headed thwacking, haahahah! |
| 14:06 | | * Stein slaps jerith around a bit with a large trout |
| 14:06 | <@Vornicus> | sigh |
| 14:06 | | * Stein slaps AnnoDomini around a bit with a large trout |
| 14:06 | < AnnoDomini> | Banjolnir? |
| 14:06 | | * Stein slaps Vornicus around a bit with a large trout |
| 14:06 | | Stein was kicked from #code by Vornicus [okay, seriously, enough. Go 'way] |
| 14:10 | | Reiver is now known as ReivSLEP |
| 14:11 | < AnnoDomini> | Hm. He must be really sleepy. Went straight to SLEP, skipping Zzz. |
| 14:14 | <@ReivSLEP> | I went to bed. |
| 14:14 | <@ReivSLEP> | Then got up again. |
| 14:14 | <@ReivSLEP> | This is bedx2 |
| 14:14 | <@ReivSLEP> | I just forgot to mention it the first time. |
| 14:15 | | Vornicus is now known as Vornicus-Latens |
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| 15:31 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
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| 16:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | Vornicus-Latens: look into roll, exch and dup in particular |
| 16:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | And yes, writing all the different variants out is probably best done with a bash script that passes parameters into the ps. |
| 16:50 | <@jerith> | ... |
| 16:50 | <@jerith> | Why was *I* singled out for thwappage? |
| 16:51 | < AnnoDomini> | Nobody knows. |
| 16:51 | | * jerith cleans out Stein's skull, coats it in clear epoxy (so I don't get whatever he had) and drinks beer out of it. |
| 16:52 | < ErikMesoy> | Mm. A beer stein. |
| 16:54 | | _OcEaN_ [~deniz@85.99.245.ns-4259] has joined #code |
| 16:54 | <@jerith> | And *that*, dear reader, is what happens to someone who attempts to assault me with seafood. |
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| 16:55 | <@jerith> | I love doing that. :-P |
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| 17:14 | | * MyCatVerbs ponders. |
| 17:14 | < MyCatVerbs> | jerith: you wouldn't perchance to be a fan of Rudyard Kipling, would you? |
| 17:15 | < ErikMesoy> | I don't know, I've never kippled. |
| 17:15 | < ErikMesoy> | Wait, wrong joke. |
| 17:16 | <@jerith> | MCV: The last Kipling I read was about 15 years ago and I don't remember much. Why? |
| 17:16 | < MyCatVerbs> | "And *that*, dear reader" <--- seems vaguely reminiscent. |
| 17:16 | <@jerith> | Ah. |
| 17:17 | <@jerith> | I stole it from a spoof I only vaguely recall. |
| 17:17 | <@jerith> | I was going to go for "dear listener", but then you're not listening to me. Unless you have a screen-reader. |
| 17:17 | < ErikMesoy> | Indeed. The Just So Stories repeatedly use "And *that*, Best Beloved, is why..." in the parenthesized points. |
| 17:18 | <@jerith> | My mother always pluralised the Best Beloved. |
| 17:19 | <@jerith> | Mostly because I once asked whether it was myself or my brother that was the Best Beloved. ;-) |
| 17:19 | <@jerith> | (I must have been about 6 at the time.) |
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| 17:50 | < MyCatVerbs> | jerith: sweet. |
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| 19:19 | <@Chalcedon> | does anyone have any suggestions for early stage programming projects? |
| 19:19 | < ErikMesoy> | That's a bit vague. |
| 19:19 | < ErikMesoy> | How early? How useful do you want them to be? |
| 19:19 | <@Chalcedon> | (read I'm already at the end of the available work, am rapidly becoming bored senseless and would like a project to practice using an unfamiliar language) |
| 19:20 | <@Chalcedon> | well, strictly we haven't got to loops yet, nor writing functions. |
| 19:20 | < ErikMesoy> | If you're bored senseless, try Brainfuck. |
| 19:20 | < GeekSoldier> | what language, Chalcedon? |
| 19:20 | <@Chalcedon> | nono, am already learning a new language |
| 19:20 | <@Chalcedon> | C# |
| 19:20 | <@Chalcedon> | (no, not my choice) |
| 19:20 | | * Chalcedon is taking programming 101 |
| 19:20 | < ErikMesoy> | Hmm. A bayesian spam filter? |
| 19:20 | < ErikMesoy> | A Sudoku solver? |
| 19:20 | <@Chalcedon> | hmmm |
| 19:21 | <@Chalcedon> | thank you |
| 19:21 | | * Chalcedon will try those. |
| 19:21 | <@jerith> | A scalable queue webservice? |
| 19:21 | <@Chalcedon> | I don't even know what that is sorry jerith |
| 19:22 | <@Chalcedon> | oh bother. |
| 19:22 | <@Chalcedon> | I can't do a Sudoku solver, I don't know how to deal with arrays. |
| 19:22 | < ErikMesoy> | hmm |
| 19:22 | < GeekSoldier> | a C# to INTERCAL compiler? |
| 19:22 | <@Chalcedon> | (that being one of the things I took this paper to learn) |
| 19:22 | <@Chalcedon> | INTERCAL? |
| 19:22 | < ErikMesoy> | To what extent can't you deal with arrays? |
| 19:22 | <@jerith> | (Amazon SQS hasn't quite nailed that one yet. Scalable and service, sure, but they're not a queue.) |
| 19:22 | | * jerith grins. |
| 19:23 | <@Chalcedon> | well, I've no idea how to /write/ an array. |
| 19:23 | <@Chalcedon> | I also don't know how to deal with them mathematically either |
| 19:23 | <@jerith> | I was being facaetious. Or however you spell it. |
| 19:23 | | * Chalcedon hug jerith |
| 19:24 | < ErikMesoy> | Not sure of C#'s syntax - if it's as related to Java as my Java professor claimed, then int[][] gives you a 2d array. |
| 19:24 | | * Chalcedon investigate |
| 19:24 | <@jerith> | Chalcy: arrays are pretty easy. I'm sure you could read ahead in the text book a bit and figure them out. :-) |
| 19:24 | <@jerith> | They're pretty much like Python lists. |
| 19:24 | <@Chalcedon> | except in 2D |
| 19:24 | < GeekSoldier> | facetious... the only reason I remember how it's spelt is because all the vowels are in alphabetical orer. |
| 19:25 | < GeekSoldier> | +d |
| 19:25 | <@jerith> | And I'm lagging about two minutes behind in this conversation. |
| 19:25 | | * Chalcedon hug jerith |
| 19:25 | < ErikMesoy> | I suggest "new int[9][9]" over trying to implement the 3x3 subblocks. |
| 19:25 | <@jerith> | Because my connectivity comes in bursts, apparently. |
| 19:26 | <@jerith> | GS: Is that the correct spelling or the American spelling? :-P |
| 19:26 | < ErikMesoy> | How similar *is* C# to Java anyway? I've been too lazy to look at it despite the professor and the textbook both talking about how Java was based on the C family. |
| 19:26 | <@Chalcedon> | hmm, yes, because I can write something else to check the subblocks. I presume arrays have indices like lists |
| 19:26 | < ErikMesoy> | jerith: both, -ous endings exist in both languages, e.g. humorous/humourous |
| 19:27 | <@Chalcedon> | mind you. I don't even know how to do lists in C# yet. This shouldn't be too difficult to figure out though |
| 19:27 | <@Chalcedon> | I don't know Java, I'm sorry ErikMesoy, but my impression is that C# has /marginally/ less boilerplate. |
| 19:28 | <@jerith> | C# doesn't have Python-style lists, to the best of my recollection. |
| 19:28 | <@Chalcedon> | no, apparently it has 1D arrays (to my confusion) |
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| 19:29 | < ErikMesoy> | What you want is probably "int[][] TheBoard" followed by "for int i=1 to 9 { for int j=1 to 9 { DoSomethingWith(TheBoard[j][i]); } }" |
| 19:29 | <@jerith> | Well, a 2d array is usually just an array of arrays. |
| 19:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | Chalcedon: an array is basically a list with only positive, contiguous integer keys. |
| 19:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | A 2d array is just an array of arrays. |
| 19:30 | <@Chalcedon> | so, I couldn't for example use TheBoard[-2], like one can in Python? |
| 19:30 | < ErikMesoy> | Correct. |
| 19:30 | <@Chalcedon> | I think I see. |
| 19:31 | < ErikMesoy> | Be careful which is the horizontal and which is the vertical value. |
| 19:31 | < ErikMesoy> | I had ever so many problems with that. |
| 19:31 | <@jerith> | The thing about an array is that it can only hold one datatype. |
| 19:31 | < ErikMesoy> | Well. Yes. |
| 19:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah yes, that too. |
| 19:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | I've been working in tables so long I forgot that. |
| 19:31 | <@jerith> | So you can have an array of ints. Or an array of strings. |
| 19:31 | <@jerith> | But not an array with both ints and strings in it. |
| 19:32 | <@Chalcedon> | right. |
| 19:32 | < GeekSoldier> | nothing like writing a perl script to parse Go .sgf files into boards and flipping the black piece outputs... |
| 19:32 | < ErikMesoy> | But you could define a new type of object which had an int and a string, and declare an array of such objects. :P |
| 19:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which is not a problem for sudoku, but is for more interesting things. |
| 19:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | GeekSoldier: SGF? |
| 19:32 | <@jerith> | It doesn't really matter which is horizontal and which is vertical as long as you keep them consistent. |
| 19:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | Simple Graphics Format? |
| 19:33 | < GeekSoldier> | the description file for games of Go. |
| 19:33 | < GeekSoldier> | I forget what it stands for. |
| 19:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | Simple Go Format, probably. |
| 19:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | Been ages since I played. |
| 19:34 | | * AnnoDomini plays Go on sundays. |
| 19:34 | | * ErikMesoy used to play Go, plays it when someone else knows it. |
| 19:34 | < GeekSoldier> | It's been quite a while for me... |
| 19:34 | < GeekSoldier> | not many Go players in the Army, thought |
| 19:34 | < GeekSoldier> | -t |
| 19:34 | < ErikMesoy> | I think I was up to about 20 kyu once |
| 19:35 | < ErikMesoy> | learnt that in a year, then I forgot a lot |
| 19:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | I'd be up for a game sometime, if we can find a decent networked implementation. |
| 19:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | Keeping in mind that I am a total n00b. |
| 19:35 | | * AnnoDomini is the lamest in the club, at about 12 kyu. |
| 19:35 | < ErikMesoy> | If that's the lamest, that's a good club. |
| 19:36 | < GeekSoldier> | indeed! |
| 19:36 | < AnnoDomini> | The folks in there are mostly around 5-6 kyu. |
| 19:36 | | * GeekSoldier played at about 15-12k no IGS many years ago. |
| 19:37 | | * ErikMesoy probably could get up to 15kyu if he didn't repeatedly overextend instead of consolidating. |
| 19:37 | < ErikMesoy> | My games tend to be very swingy. |
| 19:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | Lower kyu is better, I take it? |
| 19:37 | < ErikMesoy> | I push at a fortified position, sometimes I take it and win a huge amount of territory, more often my opponent holds my pushes at bay and then wipes one of them out. |
| 19:37 | < GeekSoldier> | TF: Yes. |
| 19:37 | < ErikMesoy> | TF: Yes. Beginners start at 35 kyu iirc, advance up to 1 kyu=1dan. |
| 19:38 | < ErikMesoy> | From then on, higher dan ranks are better. |
| 19:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 19:38 | | * ErikMesoy makes a note to bring his Go board on the EuroCrusade. |
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| 19:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | Chalcedon: I very much worry that coming from Python, C# will drive you insane. |
| 19:46 | <@Chalcedon> | likely |
| 19:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | Since, IME, it combines the flexibility of C++, the concision of Java, and the portability of VB. |
| 19:46 | <@Chalcedon> | particularly given we're using visual C# and generating a test output is a pain in the rear end. |
| 19:46 | < ErikMesoy> | I doubt it. Java failed to drive me insane when I came from Lisp, which is roughly analoguous according to whatshisface. |
| 19:47 | < ErikMesoy> | Eric something. |
| 19:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | ErikMesoy: except that Java is portable and has some not entirely asstastic development tools. |
| 19:47 | < ErikMesoy> | What are these "development tools" you speak of? |
| 19:47 | < ErikMesoy> | All I had was an editor with syntax highlighting and auto-indent. |
| 19:48 | < ErikMesoy> | I heard tales of debuggers that let one step through a program step by step, but they never seemed to work. |
| 19:50 | <@jerith> | I find Java a bit verbose, but not too horribly painful. |
| 19:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | ErikMesoy: right, but see, at least you have that. |
| 19:51 | < ErikMesoy> | Verbose it was indeed. "Public static void main string args..." |
| 19:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | C#, last time I checked, is Visual Studio or nothing. |
| 19:51 | <@jerith> | I'd rank it next to C. |
| 19:51 | < ErikMesoy> | gedit (Ubuntu's notepad-like text editor) has syntax highlighting for both C# and Java |
| 19:51 | < ErikMesoy> | check again? |
| 19:51 | <@jerith> | Escape from pointer hell pretty much makes up for for the verbosity. |
| 19:52 | | Reivus [~Reiverta@Nightstar-23347.ubs-dsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #Code |
| 19:52 | < Reivus> | ToxicFrog? I have a favor, a terrible favor, to ask. |
| 19:52 | < GeekSoldier> | sleep time |
| 19:52 | | * ErikMesoy pokes Reivus with a null pointer |
| 19:52 | < GeekSoldier> | goodnight all. |
| 19:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | jerith: except that Java is completely useless for the stuff C is useful for. |
| 19:52 | < ErikMesoy> | Good night! |
| 19:52 | <@jerith> | s/pointer hell/memory management hell/ |
| 19:52 | <@jerith> | I'd take Java over C++ any day. |
| 19:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | And there are much better and less verbose languages that also get out out of MM hell. |
| 19:53 | <@jerith> | TF: Sure. |
| 19:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | See, if I'm ever considering using C++, it's because I'm either doing systems programming or high-performance realtime programming. |
| 19:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | Java is wholly unsuited for these. |
| 19:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | For the things that I could use Java for, I could also use Python, Lua, or Scheme, any of which is vastly superior. |
| 19:53 | <@jerith> | I pretty much only use C for embedded stuff or hacking on apps that are already written in C. |
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| 19:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | Reivus: go ahead |
| 19:54 | < Reivus> | TF: Except that java is installed on more windows machines than Python. |
| 19:54 | < Reivus> | Anyhow. |
| 19:54 | < Reivus> | I'm not sure if you're the right one to ask, but you seem to have the nouse and the head for numbers to do it without brainsplodey. >.> |
| 19:54 | < Reivus> | Uh. |
| 19:54 | < Reivus> | See, my computer here may or may not be dead. |
| 19:54 | < Reivus> | I am assuming the worst and setting myself up to be pleasantly surprised. |
| 19:55 | <@jerith> | I would never choose to start a new project in Java. |
| 19:55 | <@jerith> | Since some of my day-job code is Java and I pretty much have to live with it, I'm not too upset. iIt could be much worse. |
| 19:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | Umm...windows systems don't generally come with a working JVM installed, and most Java programs I've used come with the JVM built in because you can't rely on it being installed in the target system. |
| 19:55 | < Reivus> | In the meantime, I'm trying to specc a new machine. The Raedon 9520 Pro is a shiny card, but it is for some reason disproportionately higher priced than nVidia cards of the same performance. At the same time, the nVidia numbering system is gobbly-gook to me. |
| 19:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | So, not really an improvement over any other interpreted languages. |
| 19:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...9520? |
| 19:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | There's no such card! |
| 19:56 | < Reivus> | Er. |
| 19:56 | < Reivus> | The one you bought/reccomended? |
| 19:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | X1950? |
| 19:56 | | * Reivus does not exactly have his notes with him. |
| 19:56 | <@jerith> | .... |
| 19:56 | < Reivus> | That's the one! |
| 19:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | The one that has ludricrously inflated prices in NZ? |
| 19:56 | < Reivus> | Correct. |
| 19:56 | < Reivus> | Uh. |
| 19:57 | < Reivus> | Given my butchering of that number, you can imagine my pain at trying to figure out the nVidia ones. |
| 19:57 | <@jerith> | My datacard seems to think I am no longer connected. |
| 19:57 | <@jerith> | At least, that is what the flashy LED is telling me. |
| 19:57 | < Reivus> | But I was vaugely wondering what it's nVidia equivalent was, roughly, and how much it'd cost. To work out that I need to work out what the equivalent is, and as noted I can never make sense of the bloody card names. >.> |
| 19:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | The nV ones are confusing and random to me, too. |
| 19:57 | <@jerith> | Yet somehow the bits are still flying through the aether. |
| 19:58 | < Reivus> | TF: Damn. |
| 19:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | I have *no idea* what the nV equivalent. |
| 19:58 | < Reivus> | I was hoping somehow you might be able to make sense of the reviews or something. >.> |
| 19:58 | <@jerith> | I only ever buy low-to-mid level cards. |
| 19:58 | < Reivus> | jerith: I wanted solidly mid-level, ish. |
| 19:58 | <@jerith> | Because I'm not really a gamer. |
| 19:58 | < Reivus> | ...I just wanted to play SupComm. With the shinies. >.> |
| 19:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well, solid mid-level is at this point the X1650, or the X800 if you don't need shaders 3. |
| 19:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | The X1950 is high end, but - at least in canada - costs the same as mid-level, which is why I got it. |
| 19:59 | <@jerith> | And I ask my friend who follows these thiongs: What's a good low-to-mid level card? |
| 20:01 | <@jerith> | And they tell me. |
| 20:01 | <@jerith> | Anyways, bedtime for me. |
| 20:01 | <@jerith> | G'night all. |
| 20:01 | < ErikMesoy> | Good night, jerith. |
| 20:01 | < ErikMesoy> | Sleep well. |
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| 20:47 | <@Chalcedon> | ...this would be so much easier in Python |
| 20:49 | < Reivus> | *snrk* |
| 20:49 | < Reivus> | Welcome to the world of language wars. |
| 20:49 | | * Chalcedon eyes her code |
| 20:49 | <@Chalcedon> | I think I'm going to have to work out file I/O |
| 20:50 | <@Chalcedon> | cos.... there /has/ to be an easier way to do that |
| 20:51 | <@Chalcedon> | and I haven't figured out how to put out calls to functions properly yet. |
| 20:55 | <@Chalcedon> | great. No CSV parser. |
| 20:55 | | * Chalcedon writes her own. |
| 20:55 | <@Chalcedon> | well. sortof. |
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| 21:05 | < MyCatVerbs> | Chalcedon: what language are you in? |
| 21:05 | <@Chalcedon> | C# |
| 21:05 | < MyCatVerbs> | Ah, k. Dunno that. |
| 21:05 | <@Chalcedon> | I also can't establish how to get it to return my array if it's dealt with in another function. |
| 21:06 | <@Chalcedon> | I've figured out how to get it to return stuff.... |
| 21:06 | <@Chalcedon> | but Array is not the correct keyword, and I suspect string and int won't cut it. |
| 21:06 | < ErikMesoy> | return int[][] ? |
| 21:06 | < MyCatVerbs> | Chalcedon: yuoes == need an O'Reilly book, promptly. |
| 21:07 | <@Chalcedon> | no. |
| 21:07 | <@Chalcedon> | O'Reilly? |
| 21:07 | <@Chalcedon> | ErikMesoy: so far as I can tell, you declare the function to be public or private, then what it returns (void, int whatever) then name the function etc |
| 21:08 | <@Chalcedon> | I /could/ be wrong |
| 21:08 | < ErikMesoy> | "public int[][] FunctionName", would that work? |
| 21:08 | <@Chalcedon> | ah ha |
| 21:08 | < MyCatVerbs> | Yeah, these people: http://www.oreilly.com/pub/topic/csharp |
| 21:08 | <@Chalcedon> | that might be it. |
| 21:09 | < MyCatVerbs> | They produce a *lot* of rather good books. "Mastering Regular Expressions," "Java in a Nutshell," type stuff. |
| 21:09 | <@Chalcedon> | that seems to have worked thanks ErikMesoy, it'll be a while before I can tell. |
| 21:09 | < MyCatVerbs> | Not beautiful works of art, but rather clear, unambiguous, straightforward and sane. |
| 21:09 | <@Chalcedon> | I'll have a look MCO |
| 21:10 | <@Chalcedon> | I'm not sure C# is a language I'll continue with, but we'll see. |
| 21:10 | < MyCatVerbs> | Chalcedon: if you know you're going to do a lot of work in a particular language, you'll find their "x in a Nutshell" books make for good crash courses. |
| 21:11 | | * Chalcedon nods |
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| 21:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | a |
| 21:29 | < ErikMesoy> | a? |
| 21:35 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: no thanks, crap language. Far less expressive even than C. |
| 21:35 | < ErikMesoy> | Snrrk. |
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| --- Log closed Wed Feb 28 00:00:27 2007 |