| --- Log opened Sun Feb 11 00:00:30 2007 |
| 00:00 | <@McMartin> | (None of this, incidentally, involves the very legitimate complaint against early versions of UQM which was "It's not playing nice with the Launcher bar" |
| 00:00 | <@McMartin> | ) |
| 00:01 | <@McMartin> | (Which is legit. Actually, we're currently lagging in OpenDesktop support on that regard, though there's a candidate uqm.desktop file on bugzilla) |
| 00:10 | | * Vornicus wants mouse clicks near orbits to highlight the planet on that orbit. |
| 00:10 | < MyCatVerbs> | Heheh. That must've been how Perl got cobbled together. |
| 00:11 | < MyCatVerbs> | <user> It'd be convenient if... <single sentence description of a minor feature> |
| 00:11 | <@McMartin> | Vornicus: To do that, we'd first need to actually add planet highlighting of any kind~ |
| 00:11 | < Vornicus> | well, yes |
| 00:11 | < Vornicus> | but |
| 00:11 | < MyCatVerbs> | <lwall> Sure, okay. *builds the next release of Perl around it* |
| 00:16 | < Vornicus> | I've got a message, so before I get through, I'll find your answering machine, and I'll sink it first. |
| 00:49 | <@McMartin> | OK, time to see if the SVN version really does pick fights with OpenAL. |
| 00:55 | <@McMartin> | ! |
| 00:56 | <@McMartin> | I keep forgetting how MinGW doesn't strip binaries by default. |
| 00:58 | <@McMartin> | (1.2MB release file made with VC6, 3.3MB release file with MinGW) |
| 00:59 | <@Reiver> | ow |
| 01:00 | | MyCatVerbs [~mycatownz@Nightstar-379.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Head hurts.] |
| 01:05 | | Janus [~Cerulean@Nightstar-10302.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Having a sister with a MySpace account is as inconvienent as it sounds.] |
| 01:08 | | Vornicus is now known as Vornicus-Latens |
| 02:13 | <@McMartin> | Answer: not particularly. |
| 02:14 | <@McMartin> | ! |
| 02:14 | <@McMartin> | SDL 1.3 is being designed by Lantinga, apparently, in his role as a software engineer at Blizzard. |
| 02:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | ... |
| 02:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | This does not fill me with optimism. |
| 02:25 | <@McMartin> | I don't think he has full dictatorial control of the API, fortunately~ |
| 02:25 | <@McMartin> | But it would be nice to have direct access to stuff beyond DirectDraw 5. |
| 03:02 | <@Reiver> | Mindblank, remind me: |
| 03:02 | <@Reiver> | What does API stand for? |
| 03:02 | <@Reiver> | I keep thinking "Accessing Propietary Information" and going "No wait that's not it" |
| 03:03 | <@Reiver> | "A set of routines that an application uses to request and carry out lower-level services performed by a computer's operating system. Also, a set of calling conventions in programming that define how a service is invoked through the application." - yes thank you I knew that. |
| 03:04 | <@Reiver> | Ah! Application Programming Interface. |
| 03:04 | <@Reiver> | I knew it was something obvious. >.> |
| 04:03 | | * Pi shits at runtime |
| 04:05 | | Janus [~Cerulean@Nightstar-10302.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #Code |
| 04:17 | | ToxicFrog [~ToxicFrog@Admin.Nightstar.Net] has quit [Client exited] |
| 04:17 | | ToxicFrog [~ToxicFrog@Admin.Nightstar.Net] has joined #code |
| 04:17 | | mode/#code [+o ToxicFrog] by ChanServ |
| 05:01 | | Reiver is now known as ReivOut |
| 05:58 | | Mahal is now known as MahalOUT |
| 06:05 | | Forj [~Forj@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #Code |
| 06:05 | < Forj> | Question! (Reiver here) |
| 06:06 | < Forj> | Chalcedon has code that needs to be printed for puttinmg into a thesis. WHat's the 'proticol' for text-wrapping code? |
| 06:13 | < Forj> | ALso. |
| 06:13 | < Forj> | VORN |
| 06:13 | < Forj> | YOU COMMENTS SUCK |
| 06:13 | < Forj> | (just fyi.) |
| 06:24 | | Janus [~Cerulean@Nightstar-10302.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: *zzz*] |
| 06:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | Umm. |
| 06:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | "text-wrapping"? |
| 06:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | Embedding in a larger document, from context? |
| 06:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | Fixedwidth font, comments at the top saying what file it's from and what it does if not already present. |
| 06:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | At least, that's how I do it; I don't know if there's a formal spec for this. |
| 06:30 | < Forj> | It's being asked in the conext of code that may be wider than the page it is going on. |
| 06:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | ... |
| 06:30 | < Forj> | Added complication: It's /python/ code. |
| 06:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | In that case I've got nothing. |
| 06:31 | < Forj> | Heh |
| 06:31 | < Forj> | SHrink the font till it fits? >.> |
| 06:31 | | Thaqui [~Thaqui@Nightstar-26359.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 06:31 | | Thaqui [~Thaqui@Nightstar-26359.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #code |
| 06:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | I think Python actually has a way to split lines, but you'd have to ask Vorn. |
| 06:32 | | * Chalcedon enuggenate TF |
| 06:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...enuggenate? |
| 06:32 | | * Chalcedon insert the stolenated h |
| 06:32 | | * Chalcedon enhggenate TF |
| 06:33 | <@Chalcedon> | bloody insert |
| 06:33 | | * Chalcedon enhuggenate TF |
| 06:33 | <@McMartin> | I believe \ is the ignore-following-newline token. |
| 06:33 | | * ToxicFrog huggles Chalcy |
| 06:33 | | * Chalcedon enhuggenate McMartin too |
| 06:34 | | * Chalcedon tests |
| 06:35 | | * McMartin encases Chalcedon in a giant block of ice. |
| 06:36 | | * Chalcedon freezes solid? |
| 06:36 | | * Chalcedon thaws out next week and comes after McMartin with chainsaw, axe and toothbrush. |
| 06:37 | | * McMartin again re-ices as soon as Chalcedon invades his personal space. |
| 06:37 | <@Chalcedon> | (McMartin, you -er- just ruined my career) |
| 06:37 | <@McMartin> | Some people learn faster than others. |
| 06:38 | <@Chalcedon> | (if my thesis doesn't go for binding monday week, I don't /have/ a career, thus encasement in ice not constructive) |
| 06:41 | < Forj> | *ahem* Chalcy is a tad stressed. Fret not, McM |
| 06:41 | < Forj> | Incidentally, \ is correct - cheers. |
| 06:46 | | * Chalcedon thanks again, returns to writing |
| 07:08 | | * Serah-Lost dances with ToxicFrog. |
| 07:21 | | MahalOUT is now known as Mahal |
| 07:31 | | gnolam [Lenin@Nightstar-13557.8.5.253.se.wasadata.net] has joined #Code |
| 07:54 | | ReivOut is now known as Reiver |
| 08:16 | <@Reiver> | ToxicFrog? |
| 08:16 | | * Reiver just looked up the price for a Raedon X1950 Pro PCIE gfx card. |
| 08:16 | <@Reiver> | Um. |
| 08:17 | <@Reiver> | ~US$290 |
| 08:17 | <@Reiver> | From the cheapest stores. ;_; |
| 08:18 | | * ToxicFrog dances with Serah-Lost and erks at Reiver |
| 08:18 | <@Reiver> | You wouldn't have reccomendations on anything half a step downwards, would you? |
| 08:18 | <@Reiver> | I'm assuming it's not that much in the US. |
| 08:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | Depends on what you're after. |
| 08:18 | < Serah-Lost> | ^_^ |
| 08:18 | <@Reiver> | (Is it?) |
| 08:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | It was $230 canadian for me. |
| 08:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | (for the Sapphire build) |
| 08:19 | <@Reiver> | ...That is quite a bit less |
| 08:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | As for cheaper alternatives - the X800/X850 range of cards is cheap (~$100) and powerful - they're the high-end cards that the X1950 replaces - but they don't support Shaders 3. |
| 08:20 | <@Reiver> | Like 75% of the price. |
| 08:20 | <@Reiver> | Shaders 3 is/does what? |
| 08:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | The X1650 is more expensive, around $200, but does support Shaders 3. |
| 08:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | Shader Model 3.0 |
| 08:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | Means it has hardware support for v3 pixel shaders, which includes hardware HDR lighting. |
| 08:21 | <@Reiver> | hm |
| 08:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | Games that request SM3 will run faster and look better on it; games that require SM3 - which are becoming increasingly common - will not run at all without it. |
| 08:21 | <@Reiver> | X1650 is half the price. |
| 08:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | o.O |
| 08:21 | <@Reiver> | Only 256MB of RAM avalable though. This a problem at all? |
| 08:22 | <@Reiver> | I mean, my current Raedon 9800 has that much. |
| 08:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | Your X1650s are cheaper, but your X1950s are more expensive. |
| 08:22 | <@Reiver> | Well, Raedon 9800 Pro but |
| 08:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | Weirdness. |
| 08:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | 256 is still plenty. |
| 08:23 | <@Reiver> | Sapphire X1650 PRO ATI Radeon X1650PRO 256MB DDR PCI-E 16X TV-out DVI $225.25 |
| 08:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | Is that $cdn or $nz? |
| 08:23 | <@Reiver> | PowerColor ATi Radeon X1950 PRO 512MB VIVO PCI-E 2 600/1400MHz $421.40 |
| 08:23 | <@Reiver> | NZD |
| 08:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | Err |
| 08:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | I note that the PowerColor one is VIVO, which ISTR means video capture hardware and stuff |
| 08:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | And is 512MB |
| 08:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | The price I quoted is for the Sapphire version, which isn't VIVO and has 256MB |
| 08:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which likely explains the price discrepancy. |
| 08:24 | <@Reiver> | NZ$100 => CN$80 |
| 08:25 | <@Reiver> | Sapphire X1950Pro PCIE 256MB DDR3 ATi Radeon GPU 1x TV-out 2x DVI Graphics Card $370.00 |
| 08:25 | | * Reiver coughs. |
| 08:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...ok, that's still more expensive |
| 08:25 | <@Reiver> | Yeah. |
| 08:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | I'd expect around nz$300 |
| 08:25 | <@Reiver> | It's why I disregarded the 256MB one. |
| 08:26 | <@Reiver> | If I'm gonna pay that much, why not NZ$50 more to double the RAM and get more shinies? >.> |
| 08:26 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah. |
| 08:26 | <@ToxicFrog> | The thing is, for me that was the X1650 vs the X1950 |
| 08:26 | <@Reiver> | I see |
| 08:26 | <@ToxicFrog> | Same RAM, but the X1950 is 2-4 times as powerful and costs $30 more |
| 08:26 | <@ToxicFrog> | So why not go for it? |
| 08:27 | <@Reiver> | Wheras here here it is... twice the price. |
| 08:27 | <@Reiver> | I suppose the question is "How much will I notice the slower card?" |
| 08:27 | | * Chalcedon gives Reiver a cookie. |
| 08:27 | <@Reiver> | And/or "How long until games come out that I notice it?" |
| 08:27 | <@Chalcedon> | ah, graphics cards. The /expensive/ bit of the computer. |
| 08:27 | <@Reiver> | Heh, yes. |
| 08:27 | <@Reiver> | Even when you're not after CAD models. |
| 08:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | Depends. Any of the ones I mentioned - the X850, the X1650 or the X1950 - will be a big step up from 9800 (which is in fact what I have right now) |
| 08:28 | <@Reiver> | Rephrase: |
| 08:28 | <@Chalcedon> | (Forj's one was a full 1/4 of the cost of the machine) |
| 08:28 | <@Reiver> | "How much difference will it make when I'm playing Supreme Commander?" ¬¬ |
| 08:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | As to when you start noticing - the X850 you will notice immediately if you want to play some games like RoboBlitz, as SM3 games simply won't run on it. |
| 08:28 | | * Reiver does not go much for FPS's etc in general so |
| 08:28 | | * Reiver nods. |
| 08:29 | <@Reiver> | I want to be able to run SM3 then. |
| 08:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | (supreme commander will work on SM2, though~ |
| 08:29 | <@Reiver> | I'll go with SM3. May as well futureproof as much as I can afford to. |
| 08:29 | | * ToxicFrog nods |
| 08:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | This was also my reasoning. |
| 08:29 | | * Reiver tends to not go so much for raw speed as futureproof'd. |
| 08:30 | <@Reiver> | AKA "just how long until my machines hardware becomes not outdated but obsolete?" |
| 08:30 | <@Reiver> | (Unable to run X or Y counts as obsolete.) |
| 08:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | The X850 would have been a much better choice if it was just about price:performance. |
| 08:30 | | * Reiver nod. |
| 08:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | But with SM3 out, I decided to go with the X1650 instead. |
| 08:31 | <@Reiver> | ... |
| 08:31 | <@Reiver> | Radeon X850 XT 256MB PCI Express 13 prices $339.00 |
| 08:31 | <@Reiver> | That can't be right. |
| 08:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | ... |
| 08:31 | <@Reiver> | That's more than the 1650! |
| 08:31 | <@Reiver> | Anyhoo |
| 08:31 | <@Reiver> | Looks like the 1650 is the sweet spot on price, huh? >.> |
| 08:31 | <@Reiver> | (AKA the one that costs half as much as the others.) |
| 08:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah, that doesn't make sense. |
| 08:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | They go for around $100-$150 most places |
| 08:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | So, yeah, looks like the X1650 is ideal. |
| 08:33 | <@Reiver> | Well, so long as I don't quickly regret the speed hit... |
| 08:33 | <@Reiver> | Shouldn't be a problem? |
| 08:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah. |
| 08:34 | <@Reiver> | The thing is, I can't really 'compare to the current' - the current machine can't run things like SupCom at all in any decent way, so it's not really a comparison to current - it's a comparison to future, as it will. |
| 08:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | I note that the X1650 is still an upper-midrange-card and a big step up from the 9800. |
| 08:34 | <@Reiver> | Idly |
| 08:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | Roughly speaking, it's a 9600, only two generations later. |
| 08:34 | <@Reiver> | Difference between 1650 and 1600? |
| 08:35 | < Thaqui> | So have you worked out what they are performance wise? |
| 08:35 | < Thaqui> | Because in X800 will outperform an X1600 |
| 08:35 | < Thaqui> | *an |
| 08:35 | < Thaqui> | A 256MB 9800? |
| 08:36 | < Thaqui> | http://www.notebookcheck.net/Mobile-Graphics-Cards-Benchmark-List.844.0.html |
| 08:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | Faster core and memory clocks. Recent 1650s are also based on the RV535 core instead of the RV530 |
| 08:36 | < Thaqui> | Take a look at that. |
| 08:36 | < Thaqui> | Nevermind. |
| 08:36 | < Thaqui> | Wrong list >.< |
| 08:36 | < Thaqui> | That's the mobile one. |
| 08:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | Note that none of this applies to the X1650 XT |
| 08:36 | <@Reiver> | Which is scary good or scary crap? |
| 08:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which is based on the RV560 and gets much faster memory as well as more execution pipelines |
| 08:37 | <@Reiver> | Radeon X1950XT 256MB 3 prices $537.75 - A guy can dream. |
| 08:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | 1650. |
| 08:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | Not 1950. |
| 08:37 | < Thaqui> | Here we go, this may be a better benchmark. |
| 08:37 | < Thaqui> | http://www23.tomshardware.com/graphics.html |
| 08:38 | <@Reiver> | 1950XT is good or bad? |
| 08:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | Good. |
| 08:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | Generally - |
| 08:38 | | Vornicus-Latens is now known as Vornicus |
| 08:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | XX00 - the basic version |
| 08:38 | < Thaqui> | Near the top of that list. |
| 08:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | XX50, XX50 Pro - faster core and memory; maybe a slightly more recent core with bugfixes |
| 08:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | XX50 XT - top of the line. Much faster core and memory, more recent core with more execution pipelines |
| 08:39 | <@Reiver> | So... |
| 08:39 | <@Reiver> | 1650XT vs 1950Pro? |
| 08:39 | <@Reiver> | The XT still wins out somehow? |
| 08:39 | <@Reiver> | Or is the bigger first number Inherently Superior? |
| 08:40 | < Thaqui> | Just out of curiosity, why ATi? |
| 08:40 | <@Reiver> | Because TF says it is good and best value for money, at current. |
| 08:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | Reiver: in that case, the 1950 wins out over the 1650. |
| 08:40 | <@Reiver> | (This is good, because my dislike of Geforce is similar to my dislike of Intel.) |
| 08:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | Even the lowest end 1900 is based on the RV580. |
| 08:40 | <@Reiver> | (I'll buy it if it makes sense, but I don't like it.) |
| 08:40 | | * Reiver nod. |
| 08:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | The highest end 1650 is based on the RV560. |
| 08:41 | <@Reiver> | So bigger number > fancy letters at the end. |
| 08:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 08:41 | <@Reiver> | OK. |
| 08:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | 2XX, 3XX are low end. |
| 08:41 | < Thaqui> | Why the dislike? |
| 08:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | 6XX are midrange. |
| 08:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | 8XX and 9XX are high end. |
| 08:41 | <@Reiver> | Thaqui: ... You know, I can't really tell you any more. |
| 08:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | Those indicate general performance classes, and the nothing/Pro/XT/XTX suffixes, variations within a class. |
| 08:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | I can! |
| 08:42 | <@Reiver> | Something vaugely instinctive. |
| 08:42 | < Vornicus> | To wrap code in python you either break the line within a set of ()[]{} or end the line with a \ |
| 08:42 | <@Reiver> | Or TF, who shares similar zealotries to me, can tell you. |
| 08:42 | <@Reiver> | >.> |
| 08:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | Basically, it breaks down into three aspects: anti-nV (product), pro-ATi (product), and pro-ATi (business) |
| 08:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | Item the first: I have never had a good experience with an nV card, or more accurately, with nV drivers. |
| 08:43 | < Thaqui> | It's just because something like the 7600GS is around $200. |
| 08:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | My experiences with nV are endless charts tracking which driver releases work with which games, installing different driver versions on a daily basis based on what I want to play. |
| 08:44 | < Thaqui> | On the other hand I have used nVidia for a while now, and have never had a problem with them... even with drivers in linux. |
| 08:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | In contrast, my experiences with ATI have been consistently good; the drivers work well, the card performs well, everything behaves no matter what driver revision I'm using and the card doesn't explode without warning. |
| 08:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | (Linux is kind of a different story. ATI has ok support, but nV has excellent support. But I don't game in Linux; if I can get the hardware framebuffer working - which happens out of the box on either company's hardware - I'm happy.) |
| 08:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | For the finishing blow, ATI is a Canadian company and is now merged with AMD, which is just generally awesome. |
| 08:45 | <@Reiver> | *snrk* |
| 08:46 | <@Reiver> | I do recall the nV cards being a pain in the ass to work right. |
| 08:46 | <@Reiver> | This may have changed; the impressions were forged last year and before on a semi-regular basis. |
| 08:46 | < Thaqui> | I've never actually had a dislike for either company. Just with each time I choose, for price/performance I've ended up going with nVidia. |
| 08:46 | <@Reiver> | Which generally reconciled into an overall impression of "nVidia keeps being crap". |
| 08:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | So, even were they both equal I would prefer ATI, and as it happens my experience has overwhelmingly been that ATI makes better stuff. |
| 08:47 | <@Reiver> | That half-life demo thing seems a little odd. |
| 08:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | As for who has the better prices - this depends, I find, on the day of the week, who's releasing next, the angle of the stars, etc. |
| 08:47 | <@Reiver> | The X800s seem to be beating the 1650s? |
| 08:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | They've been pretty close, trading off every month or three, for a while. |
| 08:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | Reiver: the X8XX cards are the absolute high end of this generation. |
| 08:48 | < Thaqui> | X800s beat out X1600's by a long shot. |
| 08:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | Err, the previous generation. |
| 08:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | The X16XX cards are the midrange cards of this generation. |
| 08:48 | <@Reiver> | So the old generation can beat the new generation. |
| 08:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | More features, but no more - in most cases fewer - execution pipelines. |
| 08:48 | <@Reiver> | It's just the new generation will be able to do more shit? |
| 08:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 08:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | The X8XX cards are faster, but don't do shaders 3 or DX9C. |
| 08:49 | <@Reiver> | Which is a bad thing for futureproof. OK. |
| 08:49 | <@Reiver> | Thaqui: Where does that whatsit card you quoted fall into the spectrum? |
| 08:49 | < Thaqui> | The nVidia one? |
| 08:49 | | * Reiver regrets that he sucks at review-trawling. |
| 08:49 | <@Reiver> | Aye. |
| 08:49 | <@Reiver> | $200 you say? |
| 08:50 | < Thaqui> | Reiv: That's why I'll use something like the benchmark sheet as a comparison. |
| 08:50 | < Thaqui> | http://www23.tomshardware.com/graphics.html |
| 08:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | Reiver: http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/02/06/the_best_gaming_video_cards_for_the_money /index.html |
| 08:50 | <@Reiver> | Yeees, but benchmarks are not always entirely fair, I've found. |
| 08:51 | < Thaqui> | They're really the only imperical data you can go on, Reiv. |
| 08:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | Reiver: that's why it gives you a choice of different games and different settings within games; I've found that sampling all of them gives you a nice overall impression. |
| 08:51 | <@Reiver> | Ah ok. |
| 08:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's not perfect, but it's better than just running them all through 3dmark and hoping neither manufacturer cheated. |
| 08:52 | < Thaqui> | *empirical |
| 08:52 | <@Reiver> | Oh, I'd missed the dropdown menus~ |
| 08:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | Also, check out the article I linked. |
| 08:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | The prices they quote are for US stores and in $US, though. |
| 08:52 | <@Reiver> | Radeon X1650 XT, 256MB, PCI-Express 17 prices $267.75 |
| 08:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | So they may not have any resemblance to yours. |
| 08:53 | <@Reiver> | Sapphire X1650 PRO ATI Radeon X1650PRO 256MB DDR PCI-E 16X TV-out DVI $225.25 |
| 08:53 | <@Reiver> | Extra fourty bucks. (CN$30) Worth it? |
| 08:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | I...am not sure. |
| 08:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_ATI_graphics_processing_units <-- the specs |
| 08:55 | <@Reiver> | ...Mind you, my budget is ~200, not ~300, so it'd have to be really worth it... |
| 08:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | (This says nothing about *performance*, but looking at the pipeline counts, core revisions and clock speeds will give you a rough impression of relative performance) |
| 08:56 | | * Reiver ponders. |
| 08:56 | <@Reiver> | The nVidias are cheap, though... |
| 08:56 | <@Reiver> | >.> |
| 08:56 | | * Reiver wonders why that is anyway, but |
| 08:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Both companies are gearing up to release DX10 cards. |
| 08:56 | < Thaqui> | Worth it compared to what card? |
| 08:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | Thaqui: the two he just said |
| 08:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | <Reiver> Sapphire X1650 PRO ATI Radeon X1650PRO 256MB DDR PCI-E 16X TV-out DVI $225.25 |
| 08:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | <Reiver> Radeon X1650 XT, 256MB, PCI-Express 17 prices $267.75 |
| 08:57 | < Thaqui> | There seems to be a lot more nVidia cards than ATi around. |
| 08:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | The XT is more expensive, but is an XT and thus based on RV360 instead of RV535 |
| 08:57 | <@Reiver> | The card I buy now won't run DX10, correct? |
| 08:57 | < Thaqui> | Ah, right. Just saw the other. |
| 08:57 | < Thaqui> | No. |
| 08:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | It won't have hardware support for DX10 features. |
| 08:58 | <@Reiver> | Bummer. |
| 08:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | DX10 games will still run on it until they become *exclusively* DX10. |
| 08:58 | < Thaqui> | I think the 8800 is still the only DX10 card out there, and it's $1000 |
| 08:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | Bear in mind, however, that DX10 is only relevant if you're running Vista anyways. |
| 08:58 | <@Reiver> | ...True |
| 08:58 | < Thaqui> | and please don't say you'll be running that :P |
| 08:58 | <@Reiver> | This machine shall age gracefully then. |
| 08:58 | | * Reiver hm. |
| 08:58 | | * Reiver scratch head. |
| 08:59 | <@Reiver> | So the ATi one is to be the 1650 Pro then. Because that seems the rough sweetspot of what is good, and what I am willing to pay. |
| 08:59 | <@Reiver> | ~$250 ish. |
| 08:59 | <@Reiver> | (NZ) |
| 09:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | Thaqui: a lot more in which sense? |
| 09:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | More models, more availability? |
| 09:00 | <@Reiver> | Both, in NZ. |
| 09:00 | < Thaqui> | More availability of the nVidia models. |
| 09:00 | <@Reiver> | Scads of nVidia. |
| 09:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 09:00 | <@Reiver> | Probably why they're cheaper. |
| 09:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | Here it depends greatly on which store you visit. |
| 09:00 | <@Reiver> | www.pricespy.co.nz >.> |
| 09:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | I wonder sometimes if each one signs contracts, possibly in blood, agreeing to favour one or the other company when stocking video cards. |
| 09:01 | < Thaqui> | So what's the rush for the upgrade, Reiv? |
| 09:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Supreme Commander. |
| 09:01 | <@Reiver> | *coff* :) |
| 09:01 | < Thaqui> | Ah. |
| 09:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which is, I note, playable on a 9800! |
| 09:01 | <@Reiver> | More to the point: |
| 09:01 | < Thaqui> | Isn't that a ways off? |
| 09:01 | <@Reiver> | This machine was, when purchased, intended to have been retired at the start of last year. |
| 09:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | However, you have to turn everything down as far as it will go, and you still only get around 20-30fps. |
| 09:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Thaqui: the demo is out. The game comes out next week. |
| 09:01 | < Thaqui> | Oh. |
| 09:01 | < Thaqui> | Hm. |
| 09:01 | | * Thaqui eyes wallet. |
| 09:01 | <@Reiver> | Part way through the year before that however, it had a CPU-death, and recieved some minimum-budget repairs. |
| 09:01 | | * Thaqui weeps. |
| 09:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | Furthermore, we have Oblivion (already out), DMoM&M (also already out), and Bioshock (this spring/summer) |
| 09:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | None of which will run acceptably on a 9800. |
| 09:02 | <@Reiver> | This extended it's life from 12 months remaining to ~18+, partly due to finance scheduling having taken a hit, and partly because the hardware was fairly decently improved anyway. |
| 09:02 | < Thaqui> | I wonder how well it'd run on my 6600GT |
| 09:02 | < Thaqui> | Probably not well :( |
| 09:02 | <@Reiver> | It's since been 24. |
| 09:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | And Portal and HL2.2, but those I'm less worried about because Valve is generally awesome about making their stuff scale down well. |
| 09:03 | <@Reiver> | The machine is starting to show it's age. |
| 09:03 | < AnnoDomini> | ((Meh. UQM and P:T run on pretty much anything. :P)) |
| 09:03 | <@Reiver> | And I have a semester coming up where I am expecting to take computer science papers again. |
| 09:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | (hell, you can run HL1 on a Pentium 1 in Wine) |
| 09:03 | <@Reiver> | This is not in itself importaint - but does make a convinient excuse to my parents. |
| 09:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | (well enough to be competitive in deathmatch even) |
| 09:03 | <@Reiver> | "Oh I need a new computer to, um, compile my programs faster" |
| 09:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | Pfft |
| 09:04 | <@Reiver> | "Yes. Yes, that's it. You want my old one?" |
| 09:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | That doesn't explain the video card, though |
| 09:04 | <@Reiver> | Yes it does! |
| 09:04 | <@Reiver> | I had to buy a new machine. |
| 09:04 | < Thaqui> | CAD. |
| 09:04 | <@Reiver> | While I was there the standards have all changed, so the new motherboard requires a newer gfx card. |
| 09:04 | <@Reiver> | And while I'm there I might as well future-proof it by getting a modern one, right? |
| 09:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 09:05 | <@Reiver> | (This one is, of course, AGP.) |
| 09:05 | <@Reiver> | C'mon, I've been spinning new hardware out of my parents for years. I know which technojargon pushes their buttons~ |
| 09:05 | <@Reiver> | I generally throw in jargon about future-proofing, price sweetspots, etc etc. |
| 09:06 | <@Reiver> | These are all concepts that while they don't understand the technical side of it, certainly sound like they are contributing to a sound financial decision. |
| 09:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | That sort of thing would be unlikely to work on my parents, but OTOH they are tolerant of the fact that I am upgrading my system basically to improve gaming performance as long as I don't let it torpedo my education. |
| 09:06 | <@Reiver> | Afterall, if you're going to spend money, no point going the cheapest when you can get best value for money. |
| 09:06 | <@Reiver> | TF: The trick is, if I can make it sound like it's contributing to my studies |
| 09:06 | < Thaqui> | Reiv: Tell them you need it to reverse the polarity :D |
| 09:07 | <@Reiver> | They are often inclined to put a little plastic towards it. |
| 09:07 | <@Reiver> | Afterall, I am but a poor student, trying to do the best for my education, right? >.> |
| 09:07 | <@Reiver> | And uh |
| 09:07 | <@Reiver> | My birthday comes up in four weeks. |
| 09:07 | <@Reiver> | *coff* |
| 09:08 | <@Reiver> | (Actually kinda convinient having it on the 17 March - it's about three weeks in from uni starts.) |
| 09:08 | <@Reiver> | (My parents are thus in the mindset of Helping Reiver Pass His Courses etc. I got a toasted sammich press last year.) |
| 09:08 | <@Reiver> | ((This helped my courses by providing me with about 20% of my meals for the year~)) |
| 09:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | (mm, toasted sarnies) |
| 09:10 | <@Reiver> | (It's surprising how long a loaf of stale bread, a block of cheese, and a rack of herbs & spices can last you if you are skint.) |
| 09:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...shit, it's 4am |
| 09:10 | <@Reiver> | Hee |
| 09:10 | <@Reiver> | Nini TF! |
| 09:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | adapting to classes again is going to suck |
| 09:11 | <@Reiver> | Thanks for the help. |
| 09:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | 'night! |
| 09:11 | | * ToxicFrog lapcurls Serah, slwwp |
| 09:13 | | Forjeh [~Forj@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #Code |
| 09:13 | | * Serah-Lost cuddles TF. |
| 09:14 | < AnnoDomini> | ...Heh. |
| 09:14 | | Chalcedon [~Chalceon@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 09:14 | < AnnoDomini> | Reminds me of - http://www.pbfcomics.com/?cid=PBF201-Toad_Race.gif#192 |
| 09:14 | | Chalcedon [~Chalceon@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #code |
| 09:14 | | mode/#code [+o Chalcedon] by ChanServ |
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| 09:18 | | Mischief [~Mischief@Nightstar-2942.ashbva.adelphia.net] has joined #Code |
| 09:36 | <@Reiver> | New thought: |
| 09:37 | <@Reiver> | XP Classics bevels are beginning to piss me off. |
| 09:37 | < Serah-Lost> | Comment: |
| 09:37 | < Serah-Lost> | No |
| 09:37 | <@Reiver> | ;_; |
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| 10:17 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
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| 11:02 | | Reiver is now known as ReivZzz |
| 11:15 | | * Serah-Lost is trying to get EMS on XP. |
| 11:16 | <@jerith> | Aargh! glibc doesn't like me. :-( |
| 11:16 | <@jerith> | In file included from malloc.c:1722: |
| 11:16 | <@jerith> | ../include/sys/mman.h:6: error: conflicting types for '__mmap' |
| 11:16 | <@jerith> | ../misc/sys/mman.h:62: error: previous declaration of '__mmap' was here |
| 11:26 | < Vornicus> | eew |
| 11:29 | <@jerith> | I suspect one of its deps is broken. |
| 11:29 | <@jerith> | But what deps could glibc have? |
| 11:29 | | * Serah-Lost explodes in a rain of EMS problems. |
| 11:30 | <@jerith> | Is that EMS-the-very-old-memory-thing? |
| 11:31 | < AnnoDomini> | Yes. |
| 11:32 | <@jerith> | You're probably better off with a boot disk. |
| 11:32 | < Serah-Lost> | My whole issue is that I want to run an IRC client while playing a properly speeded game. |
| 11:32 | <@jerith> | Ah. |
| 11:32 | < Serah-Lost> | DosBox = halting all other processes. |
| 11:32 | < Serah-Lost> | At least if it has to have any kind of speed worth mention. |
| 11:33 | < Serah-Lost> | And it should be no problem, except for the fact that windows is stupid. |
| 11:33 | | * jerith recommends a second computer. :-/ |
| 11:33 | <@jerith> | Unless there's something like dosbox for win32? |
| 11:33 | < Serah-Lost> | If I had a second computer it wouldn't be an issue! |
| 11:33 | | * Serah-Lost cries. |
| 11:33 | | * jerith hugs Serah. |
| 11:33 | < AnnoDomini> | Serah-Lost: http://vogons.zetafleet.com/viewtopic.php?t=5385 |
| 11:34 | | * Serah-Lost hugs jerith |
| 11:34 | < Serah-Lost> | Once a computer gets more than 5 years old, it should obtain the magical ability to run all legacy software without problems. |
| 11:34 | < Serah-Lost> | That's my vote on changing reality. |
| 11:34 | < Serah-Lost> | Thanks AD, it might help. |
| 11:35 | < AnnoDomini> | I know it helped me a bit with Colonization. |
| 11:35 | < Serah-Lost> | And I even have the EMS device driver, XP just won't run it until it's tied to a specific device. |
| 11:35 | | * AnnoDomini flees. |
| 11:40 | | * Serah-Lost has obviously already been in there and has left comments to herself >_< |
| 11:40 | | * Serah-Lost cries some more and goes to live with slow-ew as a fact of life. |
| 12:51 | | MyCatVerbs [~mycatownz@Nightstar-379.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #code |
| 12:52 | | * EvilDarkLord waves to MCV. |
| 13:06 | < MyCatVerbs> | Hello EDL. |
| 13:07 | < MyCatVerbs> | Incidentally, Haskell is fucking awesome. |
| 13:07 | <@jerith> | Indeed? |
| 13:07 | < MyCatVerbs> | Type inference = teh sex. |
| 13:08 | <@jerith> | Indeed. |
| 13:10 | | * Vornicus should learn Haskell and Erlang. |
| 13:11 | < MyCatVerbs> | Vornicus: I haven't tried Erlang yet, but Haskell is amazingly fun to program in. |
| 13:11 | <@jerith> | Vorn: want to join my learn-erlang-by-writing-a-mud-server project? |
| 13:11 | < MyCatVerbs> | Beware of monads, though, they're freakishly difficult. =) |
| 13:12 | < Vornicus> | Jerith: sounds like a good time. |
| 13:15 | < Vornicus> | so, yes. |
| 13:18 | | * jerith ponders trying to find the mailing list. |
| 13:22 | <@jerith> | http://furnus.theopenproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/erlymud-dev |
| 13:22 | < Vornicus> | wootence |
| 13:22 | | * Vornicus signs up. |
| 13:24 | <@jerith> | We haven't done much yet. |
| 13:24 | < Vornicus> | who all else is in this thing? |
| 13:24 | < Vornicus> | Do we have at least a vague requirements document? |
| 13:24 | <@jerith> | Not really. |
| 13:26 | <@jerith> | GeekSoldier's in, along with a bunch of people I know in meatspace. |
| 13:27 | <@jerith> | I've been fiddling with the networking side of things a bit. |
| 13:27 | <@jerith> | Trying to get a socket->erlang message server going. |
| 13:28 | < Vornicus> | cool beans |
| 13:28 | <@jerith> | But I don't yet grok some of the essential FP idioms. |
| 13:28 | < Vornicus> | FP? |
| 13:28 | <@jerith> | Functional programming. |
| 13:28 | < Vornicus> | ah |
| 13:28 | <@jerith> | http://www.duomark.com/erlang/tutorials/proxy.html <-- That's what I'm starting with. |
| 13:28 | <@jerith> | Except I'm turning it inside out. |
| 13:30 | <@jerith> | Instead of a network server with erlang plugins, I want to make the network stuff the plugin type thing. |
| 13:30 | <@jerith> | Umm, I'm not sure I said that right. |
| 13:30 | < Vornicus> | I'm not sure what you're getting at. |
| 13:32 | <@jerith> | The proxy server thing is the controller in that system. |
| 13:32 | <@jerith> | It handles all the startup, shutdown, etc. |
| 13:32 | < Vornicus> | o...kay |
| 13:32 | <@jerith> | And it starts up a plugin module you give it. |
| 13:34 | <@jerith> | I want to extract the netowrking stuff. |
| 13:35 | <@jerith> | And make it subservient to another controller. |
| 13:44 | <@jerith> | Something like this: |
| 13:45 | <@jerith> | app(network) rather than network(app). |
| 13:45 | <@jerith> | I'm still not being very clear, am I? |
| 13:47 | < Vornicus> | no, but I don't know jack about networking anyway. |
| 13:48 | <@jerith> | Well, think of it as threads. |
| 13:49 | <@jerith> | You have one controller thread (or process) that starts all the others, feeds them data, etc. |
| 13:49 | <@jerith> | I want that to be my game, not the network subsystem. |
| 13:50 | <@jerith> | Because the network is just there to provide a UI. |
| 14:08 | | * MyCatVerbs ponders. |
| 14:09 | < MyCatVerbs> | I'm not sure whether I'd lump Erlang in with other functional languages. I get the impression that its actor model is sufficiently different that I'd feel the need to classify it differently in practice. |
| 14:09 | <@jerith> | It's very multiprocess. |
| 14:19 | < MyCatVerbs> | Whereas most functional languages seem to be good candidates for multithreaded processing on shared-memory boxes, but not very good candidates for multiple-machine clustering. |
| 14:20 | < MyCatVerbs> | Please tell me so if I'm talking a pile of shite here - I don't really have enough experience with these languages to make such judgements. :/ |
| 14:20 | <@jerith> | Erlang's all message passing, no shared memory. |
| 14:22 | <@jerith> | I don't know enough about any others. |
| 14:26 | < MyCatVerbs> | I mean like how certain constructs like map are pretty much waving a red flag in front of hte compiler and screaming, "parallelism available here! Stick me across multiple processors already you insufferable cow!" |
| 14:27 | < Vornicus> | pff |
| 14:28 | <@jerith> | Ah. |
| 14:29 | <@jerith> | Well, Erlang's all about putting everything in its own process and having them talk. |
| 14:29 | <@jerith> | It still does map and all the rest, though. |
| 14:29 | < MyCatVerbs> | Jah. It seems more like functional Smalltalk than ML, in that regard. |
| 14:30 | <@jerith> | You have to be explicit about putting stuff on a different machine, though. |
| 14:30 | < MyCatVerbs> | Ah, pity. |
| 14:30 | < MyCatVerbs> | Wait, no, that's sane. |
| 14:30 | <@jerith> | Yeah. |
| 14:47 | | MyCatVerbs is now known as MyCatIsAway |
| 16:36 | | MyCatIsAway is now known as MyCatVerbs |
| 17:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | Serah-Lost: tried VDMSound? |
| 17:15 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
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| 18:01 | | * McMartin reads backscroll |
| 18:01 | <@McMartin> | Ah, monads. |
| 18:01 | | * McMartin has used monads, but only in the context of abstract algebra. |
| 18:02 | <@McMartin> | Which is the construct for which they are named |
| 18:02 | <@McMartin> | Which makes me wonder about what, exactly, is in there water cooler. |
| 18:02 | <@McMartin> | I mean, yes |
| 18:02 | <@McMartin> | Outputting stuff is associative |
| 18:02 | <@McMartin> | And outputting nothing can be said to be an identity |
| 18:02 | <@McMartin> | but. |
| 18:04 | | MyCatVerbs [~mycatownz@Nightstar-379.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Gottago] |
| 18:19 | | Mischief [~Mischief@Nightstar-2942.ashbva.adelphia.net] has quit [Quit: ] |
| 18:43 | | * jerith ponders Nevow. |
| 18:55 | | * McMartin heads off for tea and Inform |
| 18:56 | <@jerith> | Yay tea and Inform! |
| 19:01 | < Vornicus> | Agreed! |
| 19:01 | | * McMartin hopes to finish coding the Conversation Of Doom this weekend. |
| 19:02 | <@jerith> | I must get back into my Inform writing. |
| 19:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | Likewise. |
| 19:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | But even when I'm not distracted by homework, I'm distracted by libss1edit or VWT or what have you. |
| 19:05 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, see, UQM hit a point where I can bemignly neglect it~ |
| 19:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | VWT has the added pressure of having Actual People waiting for me to finish it, too. |
| 19:06 | <@jerith> | I even wrote a somewhat nifty library to build containers that contain different things when you open them. |
| 19:06 | < Vornicus> | You built a Luggage? |
| 19:06 | <@jerith> | Sort of. |
| 19:06 | < Vornicus> | well, except for the walking and the eating and the OH GOD NOT THE TONGUE |
| 19:07 | | * jerith looks for it. |
| 19:07 | | AnnoDomini is now known as Kiers |
| 19:08 | | EvilDarkLord is now known as Thokk |
| 19:09 | | Kiers is now known as KiersBrown |
| 19:09 | | Thokk is now known as ThokkOvak |
| 19:10 | <@jerith> | How do I go about packaging an extension? |
| 19:10 | <@jerith> | Or do I just put the source up? |
| 19:11 | <@McMartin> | The source is all you need, really, assuming it's got the documentation and all that. |
| 19:11 | | * McMartin can test it for you later today if you want to ensure that it works for people who aren't you |
| 19:12 | <@jerith> | 'Tis quite small, really. |
| 19:12 | <@jerith> | And I can't remember if I finished debugging it. I think so. |
| 19:12 | | Janus [~Cerulean@Nightstar-10302.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #Code |
| 19:13 | <@jerith> | Of course, uploading it would require the Windows box to have its network plugged in... |
| 19:15 | <@McMartin> | Yay keydrives! |
| 19:15 | <@jerith> | http://www.jerith.za.net/files/if/Multiboxes |
| 19:18 | < Vornicus> | gahgiganticparagraph |
| 19:19 | | BlueTiger\Coding [BlueTiger@Nightstar-567.natsoe.res.rr.com] has joined #Code |
| 19:19 | | BlueTiger\Coding is now known as BlueTiger |
| 19:19 | <@jerith> | That's probably your browser trying to read it as HTML. |
| 19:21 | < Vornicus> | ...yeah, it appears so. |
| 19:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | And it's trying to read it as HTML because your webserver is reporting its type as text/html rather than text/plain |
| 19:22 | | * ToxicFrog thwaps |
| 19:22 | | * jerith nods. |
| 19:23 | <@jerith> | I think it defaults to text/html if it can't figure it out. |
| 19:23 | <@jerith> | The current test version defaults to application/octet-stream. |
| 19:25 | | BlueTiger [BlueTiger@Nightstar-567.natsoe.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ] |
| 19:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which is the correct behaviour. |
| 19:35 | | * jerith nods. |
| 19:40 | <@jerith> | I'm still not sure why it sometimes throws my php warning on the index page, though. |
| 19:49 | | Thaqui [~Thaqui@Nightstar-26359.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #code |
| 19:54 | | MahalBEDD is now known as Mahal |
| 20:02 | <@jerith> | And I finally have my htdocs in subversion. |
| 20:03 | <@jerith> | Now I just need to get around to implementing a backup solution and I'm sorted. |
| 20:03 | <@jerith> | Anyways, the new version's there and it Does The Right Thing with mime types it doesn't recognise. |
| 20:09 | | ThokkOvak is now known as EvilDarkLord |
| 20:15 | <@jerith> | So, anyone tried my multiboxes? |
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| 20:31 | | mode/#code [+o Chalcy] by ChanServ |
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| 20:39 | | Mahal is now known as MahalWORK |
| 21:21 | | * McMartin returns |
| 21:21 | <@McMartin> | God, so tired |
| 21:21 | | * AnnoDomini casts Remove Fatigue on McMartin. |
| 21:22 | | * McMartin grabs "Multiboxes", notes it's an octet-stream here |
| 21:25 | <@McMartin> | It doesn't appear to compile on Windows 4K41 |
| 21:25 | <@McMartin> | But this is just an appearance. =P |
| 21:25 | <@McMartin> | There's a C&P bug in the IDE on this. |
| 21:28 | <@McMartin> | And an fairly fundamental Inform 7 wart that makes the error messages suck. |
| 21:28 | <@McMartin> | But without adding beyond-ML levels of typing to tables... |
| 21:30 | <@McMartin> | So, yeah, jerith: It looks good, though I would suggest adding specifications to multibox and backend so they get nice little summaries in the Kinds index |
| 21:31 | | * McMartin flips through the docs for the reference |
| 21:32 | <@McMartin> | Mmm. The U-Stor-It example describes it in passing, but I could have sworn there was a real documenting of it |
| 21:32 | < MyCatVerbs> | McMartin: ...what on Earth could one ever do to *exceed* ML's type inference? oO |
| 21:32 | <@McMartin> | Aha! Section 21.8 |
| 21:33 | <@McMartin> | MCV: OCaml's type inference~ |
| 21:33 | < MyCatVerbs> | Touch?! But it's still an ML variant. |
| 21:33 | <@McMartin> | More seriously, types where you say "This is a record, and all I know about it is that it has, at least, these fields" |
| 21:34 | <@McMartin> | s/seriously/specifically/ |
| 21:34 | <@McMartin> | I forget OCaml's name for that |
| 21:34 | <@McMartin> | But it boils down to specifying Minimum Provided Interfaces |
| 21:34 | <@McMartin> | And it's not inference I'm requiring, it's just typing. |
| 21:35 | <@McMartin> | ML's type system is richer than everyone else's, too.[*] |
| 21:35 | < MyCatVerbs> | McMartin: sounds vaguely like duck typing got drunk and knocked up ML's type inference algorithm one night. |
| 21:35 | <@McMartin> | [* The Haskell people think it's overcomplex, but somebody proved a couple years ago that Haskell's module system and ML's are isomorphic.] |
| 21:35 | | * Vornicus clicks the asterisk to see the footnote. |
| 21:36 | <@McMartin> | (For added fun, I was at a talk a few days ago in which the speaker got to say -- in all seriousness -- "This stymied us until we realized that this was actually the C equivalent of functor application.") |
| 21:36 | <@McMartin> | (And meant functor in the ML sense.) |
| 21:37 | < MyCatVerbs> | McMartin: isomorphic? |
| 21:37 | <@McMartin> | Each can be transformed into the other. |
| 21:37 | < MyCatVerbs> | Does that mean you can bijectively map between the two? |
| 21:37 | < Vornicus> | "They're the same thing, they just look different" |
| 21:37 | < MyCatVerbs> | Ahhh, cool. |
| 21:37 | < MyCatVerbs> | I thought Haskell's type system was *based on* ML's? |
| 21:37 | <@McMartin> | CS types tend to add in "... with a polytime algorithm" |
| 21:37 | <@McMartin> | Types, yes; modules, no. |
| 21:38 | <@McMartin> | And I forget the specific feature of Haskell's that does this, but I want to say "computed types", and yet I know this is wrong. |
| 21:38 | | * McMartin needs to learn Haskell at some point, even if OCaml is the only one he'd use |
| 21:38 | <@McMartin> | The problem is that OCaml is ugly compared to SML. ;_; |
| 21:38 | < MyCatVerbs> | McMartin: they just call it "polymorphic typing" I think. |
| 21:38 | <@McMartin> | Mmm. This is something else. |
| 21:38 | <@McMartin> | This is going to bother me for awhile. |
| 21:39 | | * McMartin goes to the ACM portal to see if he can see anything that rings any bells |
| 21:39 | < MyCatVerbs> | Like, I have a function here, "simpleConvert :: (a -> Bool) -> (a -> a) -> [a] -> [a]" |
| 21:39 | < MyCatVerbs> | And when I call it as: "simpleConvert isAlpha toUpper operand" it capitalises a string. |
| 21:39 | < MyCatVerbs> | Is that the sort of thing you were talking about? |
| 21:40 | < MyCatVerbs> | (For reference: Haskell's function decleration syntax is wierd - all but the last item are parameters to the function, the very last one is always the return type.) |
| 21:40 | <@McMartin> | And no, that's not quite what I had in mind |
| 21:41 | <@McMartin> | This is the equivalent to ML's struct/sig/functor machinery. |
| 21:41 | < MyCatVerbs> | Oh. I don't know any of that. |
| 21:41 | <@McMartin> | Yeah. Haskell has something, um, Mathematical. |
| 21:41 | <@McMartin> | And I can't remember the name. |
| 21:41 | < MyCatVerbs> | Hin... something. H-M something? |
| 21:42 | <@McMartin> | But it was recently discovered that its expressive power is equivalent to ML's, so now which is Better has been kicked to the Software Engineering guys instead of the PL guys. |
| 21:42 | <@McMartin> | Argh. Haskell also has something it calls "modules" which are a much weaker concept. |
| 21:43 | <@McMartin> | Type classes! |
| 21:43 | <@McMartin> | That's what they are. |
| 21:43 | < MyCatVerbs> | Expressive power? |
| 21:43 | < MyCatVerbs> | Bleh, they're all Turing-complete anyway. Brainfuck is just as expressive as Haskell, provided I reimplement GHC in it. =0 |
| 21:43 | <@McMartin> | The degree of information hiding, compositionality, code reuse, etc., that you get with ML's structs and functors can be modeled with type classes, and vice versa. |
| 21:44 | <@McMartin> | Don't ask me to prove this; I merely pass on my understanding of what current authority says. |
| 21:44 | <@McMartin> | They may be wrong; I may be wrong in thinking they think this. |
| 21:46 | < MyCatVerbs> | McMartin: standard disclaimers, heh. |
| 21:46 | <@McMartin> | These are stronger than the standard ones. Usually when I declaim stuff I've at least read the papers. |
| 21:46 | <@McMartin> | And sometimes I've written the papers. |
| 21:47 | <@McMartin> | Emily Short has saved me the need to Write The Paper "I7 for the l33t", by actually doing a systematic mapping of the I6 library to the I7 equivalents (where existent). |
| 22:22 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 22:26 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ |
| 22:26 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
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| --- Log closed Mon Feb 12 00:00:30 2007 |