| --- Log opened Fri Nov 10 00:00:51 2006 |
| 00:00 | <@Vornicus> | He started last Friday. |
| 00:00 | <@Chalain> | I just checked in a 70-line comment describing how to create a statically-typed partial class in C# using xsd and a utility I wrote called GENXML. |
| 00:01 | <@Reiver> | ... |
| 00:01 | <@Chalain> | This comment begins with this preamble: |
| 00:01 | <@Chalain> | * HOW TO USE GENXML: |
| 00:01 | <@Chalain> | * |
| 00:01 | <@Chalain> | * PAY ATTENTION, THIS IS WAY NONTRIVIAL |
| 00:01 | <@Chalain> | * |
| 00:01 | <@Chalain> | * ADDENDUM -- THE GENXML METHOD DOESN'T TOLERATE ROWS WITH NULL VALUES, ERGO |
| 00:01 | <@Chalain> | * THE GENXML METHOD STINKS LIKE A BAG OF STARTLED FERRETS. Please look at the |
| 00:01 | <@Chalain> | * PackageToActivity and Activity classes for a less stinky (and certified 100% |
| 00:01 | <@Chalain> | * free of ferret startlings) way of loading strongly-typed data from postgres. |
| 00:02 | <@Reiver> | ... |
| 00:02 | <@Chalain> | In other news, the term "ferret startlings" makes me giggle. |
| 00:02 | <@Vornicus> | bah |
| 00:02 | <@Vornicus> | it was better when it was "minks" |
| 00:02 | | * Reiver feeds Chalain a stoatburger. |
| 00:02 | <@Chalain> | Nehh, I played around with it and liked the consonance of ferrets better. *shrug* |
| 00:02 | <@Vornicus> | well, okay |
| 00:03 | <@Chalain> | Also, there's a mink farm a mile from my house. The olfactory imagery (olfactery?) was, no pun intended, too strong. |
| 00:03 | <@Chalain> | I've taken to calling it "The Mank Farm". |
| 00:04 | <@Reiver> | We fed it to Errol, 'cuz when it gets cold the cheese gets all manky! |
| 00:06 | | * Vornicus makes an image, as an example for a comment in someone's LJ: http://vorn.dyndns.org/~vorn/mcdbat.jpg |
| 00:06 | <@Reiver> | O.o |
| 00:08 | <@Chalain> | Howard showed me his ApacheCon shirt today. On the back it has a single-arch version of the McDonalds sign, labeled "Apache". Below that, it says, "Trillions and trillions served". |
| 00:08 | <@Vornicus> | hee |
| 00:09 | <@Reiver> | >.> |
| 00:11 | | * Vornicus still wants to see Chalain's eventual LJ rant against C# |
| 00:12 | | * Reiver isn't worried either way, 'cuz it's as inevitable as the tides. :) |
| 00:12 | <@Vornicus> | well, yes |
| 00:13 | <@Vornicus> | but I await it with bated breath, as it were |
| 00:14 | <@Reiver> | Aha |
| 00:14 | | * Reiver feeds Vorn a stoatburger. |
| 00:14 | | * Vornicus nroms |
| 00:59 | | Reiver is now known as ReivOut |
| 01:06 | | * Vornicus wonders if there's a regex out there that uses ??. |
| 01:06 | <@Vornicus> | or, more precisely, a serious regex that uses it and a normal regex guy would say "yeah, that looks about right" |
| 01:12 | <@Vornicus> | also, I think he's done with his C# program. |
| 01:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | How, exactly, does ?? differ from ? |
| 01:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | I mean, \?? yes, but it's really not at all hard to come up with a reasonable use for that. |
| 01:18 | <@Vornicus> | ?? is like *? or +? |
| 01:19 | <@Vornicus> | so ? is "this is an optional thing, but if it looks like it's there, then it's there", and ?? is "this is an optional thing, but if it doesn't /need/ to be there to match the string, it's not there" |
| 01:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. It's non-greedy ?. |
| 01:22 | <@Vornicus> | yes |
| 01:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | I'm not sure that's POSIX. |
| 01:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah, it's PCRE, not POSIX. |
| 01:23 | <@McMartin> | PCRE? |
| 01:23 | <@McMartin> | Perl's Completely Ridiculous Expressions? |
| 01:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | Perl Compatible Regular Expressions. |
| 01:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | Although ? meaning nongreedy also appears in Python, emacs and TCL, according to the chart. |
| 01:41 | | Takyoji [~Takyoji@Nightstar-25280.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #code |
| 01:54 | <@Vornicus> | quitting time. |
| 01:54 | | Vornicus [~vorn@Nightstar-18307.slkc.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: ] |
| 02:05 | < Takyoji> | so how does md5 encryption work? |
| 02:06 | < Takyoji> | just curious |
| 02:06 | < Takyoji> | or is that not explainable |
| 02:06 | <@McMartin> | md5 is a Message Digest algorithm, not an encryption. |
| 02:07 | <@McMartin> | It works like this: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1321 |
| 02:08 | <@McMartin> | It computes a very complicated function based on a string of bits and returns a much smaller string of bits. |
| 02:08 | <@McMartin> | It is difficult but not impossible to come up with a different original string of bits that produces the same result |
| 02:08 | <@McMartin> | But very, very, very difficult to do so. |
| 02:08 | <+MyCatOwnz> | Unless of course, you're a nitwit and you put a single character through it. ^_^ |
| 02:08 | <+MyCatOwnz> | That way the output comes out *larger* than the input. |
| 02:08 | <@McMartin> | Hence, MD5 checks are typically used to test that a download was not corrupted. |
| 02:08 | <+MyCatOwnz> | Also, angry Korean goat-daemons come over and rip you a new one. |
| 02:09 | <@McMartin> | It's not so great for ensuring that someone evil hasn't replaced your file with something else, though. |
| 02:09 | <@McMartin> | MD4 is completely useless for this, and MD5 has some serious weaknesses so that a dedicated attacker can break it |
| 02:09 | <+MyCatOwnz> | SHA-thingummy algorithms are much better. |
| 02:09 | <@McMartin> | SHA1, however, still holds. |
| 02:10 | <@McMartin> | MD4 is not just breakable but solved, as in, given a block, you can compute a different block that hashes the same in two tries. |
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| 02:14 | < Takyoji> | ahh |
| 02:15 | | MyCatOwnz [~mycatownz@Nightstar-379.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #code |
| 02:18 | <@Janus> | May I ask a small question..? Now that the NPCs can go places without running into things, what would be the most logical thing in the game to begin working on next..? |
| 02:18 | <@McMartin> | Can the player run around? |
| 02:18 | <@Janus> | Yes, it's pretty much stuck on run right now. |
| 02:19 | <@Janus> | (as opposed to "walking") |
| 02:19 | <@McMartin> | Interaction of some kind is probably next. |
| 02:19 | < Takyoji> | I'm curious of what you're working |
| 02:20 | <@Janus> | The only thing they can do in that area is punching eachother... So I suppose 'talking' and 'stabbing' would be the next steps to a better world. |
| 02:20 | < Takyoji> | working on* |
| 02:20 | < Takyoji> | Janus |
| 02:21 | <@Janus> | Mr. Takyoji: It's me pride and joy, "Cerulean"~ |
| 02:21 | <@Janus> | --An actionish Role Playing Game. |
| 02:21 | < Takyoji> | Haven't heard of it yet |
| 02:21 | < Takyoji> | ahh |
| 02:21 | < Takyoji> | what language are you creating it in?? |
| 02:23 | < Takyoji> | Some instance of C with the Direct X SDK, right? |
| 02:23 | <@McMartin> | SDL |
| 02:23 | <@McMartin> | IIRC |
| 02:24 | <@McMartin> | Though SDL does just wrap DirectX 5 on Win32. |
| 02:25 | <@Janus> | Direct X scares me deeply, I'd rather use OpenGL if it ever made that turn to 3D (which it isn't). |
| 02:25 | < Takyoji> | ahh |
| 02:25 | | Vornicus-Latens is now known as Vornicus |
| 02:25 | <@McMartin> | Janus: SDL has OpenGL bindings, too; I used them in Sable. |
| 02:25 | < Takyoji> | I haven't written in C, C+, C++, not C# yet *smacks head against desk* I need to eventually get a book |
| 02:26 | < Takyoji> | nor* |
| 02:26 | <@McMartin> | No such thing as C+. |
| 02:26 | < Takyoji> | oh.. |
| 02:26 | <@McMartin> | C++ is so named after the postincrement operator in C. |
| 02:26 | < Takyoji> | *smacks head some more* |
| 02:26 | | Vornicus is now known as NSGuest-813 |
| 02:26 | <@McMartin> | So, uh, C++ would mean "increment C and throw the value away" |
| 02:26 | | * Janus points and laughs at Mr. NSguest 813~ |
| 02:26 | <@McMartin> | As one of my old professors put it |
| 02:27 | <@McMartin> | Then again, his favorite language was PostScript, so YMMV |
| 02:27 | < Takyoji> | heh |
| 02:28 | <@Janus> | C++ is the most popular medium to script games with. |
| 02:28 | <@Janus> | I'd guess it's not so swell for other purposes where another language would do. |
| 02:29 | | NSGuest-813 is now known as Vornicus |
| 02:30 | <@Vornicus> | C++ is a very popular language for yelling at hardware. |
| 02:31 | <@Vornicus> | It is not so popular a language for connecting to other languages because of naming madness. |
| 02:31 | < Takyoji> | heheheh |
| 02:31 | < Takyoji> | and as for C#? |
| 02:32 | <@Vornicus> | C# is a language of pain and sorrow. |
| 02:32 | <@Vornicus> | Why anyone in their right mind - or, at that, otherwise - would ever use it is beyond me. |
| 02:32 | < Takyoji> | XD |
| 02:32 | < Takyoji> | That's what one of my friend's uses I believe |
| 02:33 | < Takyoji> | BlueTiger is his nickname on Nightstar |
| 02:33 | <@McMartin> | C# has a couple of features that Java lacks and desperately needs. |
| 02:33 | < Takyoji> | ahh |
| 02:33 | <@McMartin> | However, C# lacks a sensible expertise base. |
| 02:33 | <@Vornicus> | Seriously, I just spent the last /week/ watching perhaps the most skilled developer I know fight with C# to get some really basic stuff done. |
| 02:33 | < Takyoji> | ahh |
| 02:34 | <@Janus> | I can't comment much on it, the Fates have made it very clear to avoid it at every cost. |
| 02:34 | < Takyoji> | because my friend is trying to create a tabbed text editor, but it apparently isn't going to well |
| 02:34 | < Takyoji> | then what would a wise alternative be? |
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| 02:34 | <@Vornicus> | And when he described to me what he was doing, I said that I could do the job in Ruby in two days. And I'm a slow coder. |
| 02:36 | <@Vornicus> | TO make a text editor with tabs like Firefox? |
| 02:36 | < Takyoji> | yes |
| 02:36 | <@Vornicus> | It already exists. Tell him to look up Eclipse. |
| 02:36 | < Takyoji> | No, he's just doing it for learning |
| 02:36 | < Takyoji> | I think |
| 02:40 | <@Vornicus> | Okay, I'm going to say Java with SWT |
| 02:41 | <@Vornicus> | Others in the room will certainly disagree with me; I expect votes for Python, C++, and Lua, with gtk, glade, and qt for windowing libraries. |
| 02:42 | <@McMartin> | Glade is a wrapper around GTK that makes it less BURNING PAIN |
| 02:42 | <@McMartin> | For that matter, so is SWT |
| 02:42 | <@Vornicus> | Pi will probably say MFC just to be facetious. |
| 02:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | I still need to figure out how to (1) use glade-the-editor and (2) bind glade-the-library to Lua. |
| 02:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | However, this can probably wait until after spellcast3, because the interface for same is simple enough that doing it in straight GTK really isn't so much burning pain. |
| 02:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well, except for the text box. |
| 02:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | Because apparently, in GTK, your only options for text display are "one-line label" or "full-featured editing widget with syntax hilighting" |
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| 03:17 | <@Pi> | MFC is six flavors of ass. |
| 03:18 | <@Pi> | If your primary goal is to do an app UI in Windows, use Windows Forms + .NET + C# |
| 03:21 | <@Thaqui> | Someone's looking for advice about languages? |
| 03:23 | <@Thaqui> | The best thing to do is to paste a sectioned piece of paper split up between languages on a dartboard and just go nuts. |
| 03:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | Thaqui: no, advice about UI stuff. |
| 03:30 | <@Thaqui> | Ah, fair enough. |
| 03:30 | | * Thaqui just got the impression Takyoji was asking about languages. |
| 03:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | I would personally recommend either GTK or SDL for simple stuff (yes, writing a GUI by hand in SDL is /less/ ass than many GUI libraries), Glade or a UI redesign for complex stuff. |
| 03:30 | | * Thaqui sits in the corner now. |
| 03:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | And now, slwwp. |
| 03:31 | <@Thaqui> | night Toxie. |
| 03:33 | < Takyoji> | oh whoops, back now |
| 03:33 | < Takyoji> | and yes, I was curious about a suggestable Windows programming language |
| 03:34 | <@Thaqui> | career or hobby? |
| 03:35 | < Takyoji> | well, that's actually quite negligible |
| 03:36 | < Takyoji> | I'm actually not sure myself |
| 03:36 | < Takyoji> | something that has a MySQL library for it |
| 03:36 | < Takyoji> | with windows UI |
| 03:36 | <@Thaqui> | Because it can be a fairly important consideration. |
| 03:37 | < Takyoji> | as a hobby I suppose |
| 03:37 | <@Thaqui> | I'm going with C#, but as a hobby you can just go freaking nuts. |
| 03:37 | < Takyoji> | is it because there's a language with a GNU liscense that it can't be used for commercial purposes or what? |
| 03:38 | < Takyoji> | ahh |
| 03:39 | <@Thaqui> | Just that if it was a career thing, you'd want to focus on a language that's popular in the job ads, but as a hobby you can really just go with whatever you feel lik. |
| 03:39 | <@Thaqui> | You could even go for Visual Basic. |
| 03:40 | < Takyoji> | I actually have Visual C# 2005 Expression Studio already installed but haven't used it yet because I haven't learned it yet |
| 03:40 | < Takyoji> | And Visual C++ 2005 Expression Studio |
| 03:41 | < Takyoji> | I just installed them anyway |
| 03:41 | <@Thaqui> | Visual Studio Express? |
| 03:41 | < Takyoji> | C++ express edition I mean |
| 03:43 | < Takyoji> | but I dont have Visual Studio Express |
| 03:44 | <@Thaqui> | that's just the name for the collection of them. |
| 03:44 | < Takyoji> | ahh |
| 03:45 | < Takyoji> | You mean an all-in-one programming suite? |
| 03:45 | < Takyoji> | of C, C++, and C# or something? |
| 03:46 | <@Thaqui> | No, expression edition doesn't have all in one. |
| 03:46 | <@Thaqui> | That's only the full Visual Studio. |
| 03:47 | < Takyoji> | oh |
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| 04:07 | < Takyoji> | night folks |
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| 07:15 | < Raif_> | You guys talk too much. |
| 07:17 | <@Reiver> | I'm terribly sorry. |
| 07:18 | <@Reiver> | How's you? |
| 07:18 | < Raif_> | We's good. |
| 07:18 | < Raif_> | You? |
| 07:18 | <@Vornicus> | :P |
| 07:18 | <@Reiver> | Still ill. |
| 07:18 | <@Reiver> | And jobless. |
| 07:18 | <@Reiver> | Kinda cranky as a result, but coping. |
| 07:19 | | * Raif_ patpats. |
| 07:19 | <@McMartin> | You're qualified now though! |
| 07:19 | <@Reiver> | Well, I'm qualified to enrol in my qualification, yes. >_> |
| 07:22 | < Raif_> | I don't follow. |
| 07:22 | <@Thaqui> | Unfortunately being a professional, qualified bearded man doesn't help with jobs. |
| 07:22 | <@Thaqui> | Unless he's into REALLY niche markets. |
| 07:22 | <@Reiver> | Alas not. |
| 07:22 | <@Reiver> | ...Uh, yes. Well. Moving on. |
| 07:22 | < Raif_> | Qualified bearded woman, however.... |
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| --- Log closed Fri Nov 10 17:54:24 2006 |
| --- Log opened Fri Nov 10 17:54:59 2006 |
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| 17:54 | | Irssi: #code: Total of 17 nicks [12 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 5 normal] |
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| 19:33 | | * Vornicus returns |
| 19:33 | <@McMartin> | Vornicus Forever |
| 19:33 | <@McMartin> | Vornicus Begins |
| 19:35 | <@Vornicus> | |
| 19:35 | <@McMartin> | No, that's the first one, before they make the series. |
| 19:35 | <@Vornicus> | ...heh |
| 19:36 | <@McMartin> | <Kosh> We are all Batman |
| 20:19 | | * Stephenie coughs "Batwoman" |
| 20:20 | <@Vornicus> | Even women are Batman. |
| 20:20 | <@Stephenie> | pfft |
| 20:20 | <@Stephenie> | i'm batwoman |
| 20:20 | <@Stephenie> | i am in no way masculine |
| 20:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | Just go with the reference~ |
| 20:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: of course, "we" in this case is Vorlons. |
| 20:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | Do they even have genders? |
| 20:23 | <@Vornicus> | ...I'm honestly not sure. |
| 20:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | Male pronouns are used when discussing Kosh, but this might just be a convenient mapping into english of words with no human equivalent that are politer than "it". |
| 20:24 | <@Stephenie> | alrighty then lol |
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| 20:48 | <@Vornicus> | arg. why can't I think today? |
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| 21:38 | | * Ev3 dances with Chalcedon. |
| 21:38 | | * Chalcedon becomes dizzy and falls over |
| 21:39 | | * Ev3 patpats Chalcedon and helps her up. |
| 21:39 | <@Chalcedon> | :) |
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| --- Log closed Sat Nov 11 00:00:24 2006 |