| --- Log opened Tue Oct 17 00:00:03 2006 |
| 00:00 | | * Vornicus provokes Flax. |
| 00:18 | <@McMartin> | ? |
| 00:18 | | Janus [~Cerulean@Nightstar-10302.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #code |
| 00:20 | <@Vornicus> | <Flax, in LJ> I have a date today and I have nothing to wear! <Vorn> So wear nothing! |
| 00:21 | <@Vornicus> | (I know, har, har) |
| 00:22 | | * Janus cleans the prun juice off his monitor. |
| 01:04 | | ReivZzz is now known as Reiver |
| 01:44 | | Thaqui [~Thaqui@Nightstar-8486.adsl.xtra.co.nz] has joined #code |
| 01:47 | | Reiver is now known as ReivClass |
| 01:53 | | Vornicus [~vorn@Nightstar-18307.slkc.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: ] |
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| 02:27 | | mode/#code [+o Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| 02:41 | < Janus> | That's a strange error... |
| 02:42 | < Janus> | "Circular Landscape_Class <- Landscape_Class.o dependency dropped." |
| 02:47 | < Janus> | Oh... the filename didn't have the '.c' thingy at the end. *phews* |
| 02:48 | <@Vornicus> | heh |
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| 03:12 | | Chalcedon is now known as ChalcyWork |
| 03:13 | <@Ev3> | Hmm, is there a quick way to insert a clock into an XML thingie? |
| 03:14 | <@Ev3> | As in "printf %Clock" or something. |
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| 03:21 | | mode/#code [+o Chalcedon] by ChanServ |
| 03:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...by "a clock", do you mean "the current time"? |
| 03:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | Also, what language, and do you want a human-readable or machine-readable time? |
| 03:22 | <@Ev3> | Yeah. |
| 03:22 | <@Ev3> | And I don't really care, I'll manage even if it's the seconds from 1970. |
| 03:23 | <@Ev3> | I'd prefer human readable, but I'll likely fail in adding the current time to my task manager. |
| 03:26 | <@ToxicFrog> | And what language? |
| 03:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | If it's C or C++, the functions you want are probably localtime(3) and strftime(3) |
| 03:28 | <@Ev3> | XML, I think... *shrugs* I don't know. |
| 03:28 | <@McMartin> | XML isn't a language in the sense that C or C++ is. |
| 03:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | Also possibly ctime(3). |
| 03:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | And XML is a data declaration language. |
| 03:29 | <@McMartin> | It's more of a large number of different data declaration languages. |
| 03:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's a data declaration metalanguage, then. |
| 03:29 | <@Ev3> | I know XML isn't just a language. |
| 03:29 | <@McMartin> | Uh |
| 03:29 | <@Ev3> | But I don't know what language this is in >_< Other than XML. |
| 03:29 | <@McMartin> | That's not "isn't just a language" |
| 03:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | The point is, you can't execute XML. It's used for storing data, that's all. |
| 03:29 | <@McMartin> | It "isn't a language". |
| 03:29 | <@McMartin> | Any more than text files are a language. |
| 03:29 | <@Ev3> | >_> |
| 03:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | You cannot write a program in it any more than in HTML or Net3d. |
| 03:30 | <@Ev3> | >_> |
| 03:30 | <@McMartin> | TF: Almost true. XSLT is interpreted, and is turing complete. |
| 03:30 | | * Ev3 explodes. |
| 03:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok. |
| 03:30 | <@McMartin> | You could encode a Prolog-like language in it to, but nobody has. |
| 03:30 | <@McMartin> | Ev3: Up at the top there should be a DOCTYPE tag. |
| 03:30 | <@McMartin> | This should say what kind of XML document it is. |
| 03:31 | <@McMartin> | Not the very top, but I think it has to come right after or shortly after the <?xml version="1.0"?> thing. |
| 03:31 | <@Ev3> | Nevermind. |
| 03:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ev3: if what's going on here is you have an XML document that describes the behaviour of some kind of program, and you want to modify it so that the program outputs the date or somesuch...this is entirely dependent on the program itself. |
| 03:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | The format it uses for that, I mean. |
| 03:32 | <@Ev3> | If I have to go through that much I'll decompile it. |
| 03:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | If you want to generate an actual executable that displays the datetime, you can't do that in XML. |
| 03:32 | <@McMartin> | ... wait, "decompile"? |
| 03:32 | <@McMartin> | What are you doing? |
| 03:32 | <@McMartin> | What is "it"? |
| 03:32 | <@Ev3> | taskmgr. |
| 03:33 | <@McMartin> | Wait, the Windows Task Manager? |
| 03:33 | <@Ev3> | Yes. |
| 03:34 | <@McMartin> | Doesn't that already give the date and time in the lower right corner? |
| 03:34 | <@Ev3> | Nope: Commit charge. |
| 03:34 | <@Ev3> | The taskbar, does. |
| 03:34 | <@Ev3> | And that doesn't strictly have to be the lower right. |
| 03:34 | <@Ev3> | And in the new setup isn't really available. |
| 03:35 | <@McMartin> | Oh, the task manager, not the taskbar. |
| 03:36 | <@Ev3> | I am ever seeking ways to free sysrez. |
| 03:36 | <@Ev3> | The new setup I'm attempting to run is devoid of explorer.exe |
| 03:36 | <@Ev3> | But I find myself wanting a clock. |
| 03:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | I'd still like to know just how much memory you saved by doing this. |
| 03:37 | <@Ev3> | 16k |
| 03:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | ... |
| 03:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | Unless you are really strapped for memory, that really doesn't seem worth it. |
| 03:38 | <@McMartin> | What exactly are you doing that the 16k is that dear? |
| 03:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | And, since you're using iexplore for the desktop, can't you just whack a java applet that displays the time into it or something? |
| 03:38 | <@Ev3> | It's not, but I don't really see why my OS should decide what I do with my memory. |
| 03:38 | <@Ev3> | I could. |
| 03:38 | <@McMartin> | ... that's precisely what an OS is for. |
| 03:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...that's part of the OS's job. |
| 03:39 | <@McMartin> | Because memory overlays are kind of 1970s. |
| 03:39 | <@Ev3> | Yeah, and I like that it does that, but not for itself :p |
| 03:39 | <@Vornicus> | Some would argue that that is the OS's /entire job/ |
| 03:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or - since you appear to be willing to invoke a program to display the time anyways - just toss together a simple C program that displays the time, and hotkey it. |
| 03:39 | <@McMartin> | Vornicus: No, it also has to provide a hardware abstraction layer, and schedule the CPU or CPUs. |
| 03:39 | <@Ev3> | I don't invoke a program to show time anyway. |
| 03:39 | <@McMartin> | I suggest a dedicated processor |
| 03:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ev3: so, what, you have the task manager always running? |
| 03:39 | <@Ev3> | taskmgr is always running. :p |
| 03:39 | <@McMartin> | That's probably eating more memory than your 16k. |
| 03:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | That sounds kind of clumsy. |
| 03:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | And, yeah. |
| 03:40 | <@Ev3> | The initial manglination of taskmgr was to remove its minimum size. |
| 03:40 | <@Ev3> | And no, it's not. |
| 03:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | Unless you were taking that into account when you did the calculations? |
| 03:40 | <@Ev3> | It's eating a total of 4. |
| 03:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | .......... |
| 03:40 | <@Ev3> | Which, compared to explorer.exe's 20 makes me save 16 |
| 03:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | What did you do to it? |
| 03:40 | <@Vornicus> | ...yeah, uh |
| 03:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | It takes about 2.7M normally. |
| 03:41 | | * McMartin suggest running a floppy-based Linux distribution without X~ |
| 03:41 | <@Ev3> | I figured that I never use the performance meters, so there's no need to invoke other programs to feed it with data. |
| 03:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | I'm not even sure you can create a PE under 4k without wacky linker tricks. |
| 03:41 | <@Ev3> | That did most of it. |
| 03:41 | <@Ev3> | Networking and users changing was also not desired. |
| 03:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | How much memory do you have total, anyways? |
| 03:41 | <@McMartin> | TF: What's the size of a memory page in Windows? |
| 03:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: no idea. |
| 03:41 | <@Ev3> | So in the end, I got stuck with applications, processes, and performance. |
| 03:41 | <@Ev3> | 512 -64 |
| 03:41 | <@Vornicus> | 64k, I believe |
| 03:41 | <@Ev3> | MB |
| 03:42 | <@Ev3> | And as I said, question is not wether I need it. |
| 03:42 | <@Ev3> | Question is wether I can do it. |
| 03:42 | <@Vornicus> | that's a /page/? |
| 03:42 | <@Vornicus> | oh |
| 03:42 | <@Vornicus> | that's your memory |
| 03:42 | <@Ev3> | No, that's my memory. |
| 03:42 | <@Ev3> | :p |
| 03:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ev3: so...you have saved 0.003% of your memory. |
| 03:43 | <@Ev3> | TF, those 0.003 is why my system takes barely no load at all. |
| 03:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: in that case, a 4k program is impossible. |
| 03:43 | <@Ev3> | Because there are lots of 'em. |
| 03:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | You'd have to make 64 such modifications to save even a single megabyte of memory! |
| 03:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | What's your baseline memory usage? |
| 03:44 | <@Ev3> | I think I made alot more than that. |
| 03:44 | <@Ev3> | baseline? |
| 03:44 | | * Vornicus wanders the internet. |
| 03:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | As in, memory used by windows and background services without starting up additional programs. |
| 03:44 | <@McMartin> | .5k to 8k is more standard, I believe. |
| 03:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | Memory use right after you cold boot and log in. |
| 03:45 | <@Ev3> | >_> |
| 03:45 | <@Ev3> | around 4k, I don't know. |
| 03:45 | <@Ev3> | My system doesn't consist of much. |
| 03:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | IIRC, it's typically something like 150MB for win2k, 200MB for winXP, <50 for Linux without X, and 600-800 for Vista. |
| 03:45 | <@Ev3> | Anymore. |
| 03:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | No, sorry, that's not possible. |
| 03:45 | <@Ev3> | I really, really don't know. |
| 03:45 | <@McMartin> | The Commodore 64 had 32KB. |
| 03:45 | <@McMartin> | Resident. |
| 03:45 | <@McMartin> | All the time. |
| 03:45 | <@McMartin> | Not necessarily addressable by RAM, but there. |
| 03:46 | <@McMartin> | DOS 5.0 was in the hundreds of kilobytes, and was also resident All The Time. |
| 03:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | I now depart what is now evidently a nonsensical conversation to construct dinner. |
| 03:46 | <@Ev3> | My current system load total is 16M. |
| 03:46 | <@Ev3> | That or I need something better at counting than what's built into windows. |
| 03:47 | | Janus [~Cerulean@Nightstar-10302.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #code |
| 03:47 | | * Vornicus applies Floppy Linux to Ev3 and has done with it. |
| 03:47 | <@McMartin> | Indeed. |
| 03:47 | <@Ev3> | Vorn, it's not half the fun. |
| 03:47 | <@McMartin> | It's far more effective, though. |
| 03:47 | <@Ev3> | All I asked for was wether there was an easy way. |
| 03:47 | <@McMartin> | Yes. "Run a minimal Linux installation." |
| 03:47 | <@Ev3> | But I don't like Linux. |
| 03:47 | <@Vornicus> | THat's too bad. |
| 03:48 | <@McMartin> | Actually, what you really want is to run CP/M, but its address space is too small for you. |
| 03:49 | <@McMartin> | Pre 6.0 DOS versions may work, though. |
| 03:49 | <@Ev3> | No, what I really want to do is exactly what I'm doing now. |
| 03:49 | <@Ev3> | It's also what I do for a living, and it's a way to set goals for myself. |
| 03:49 | <@Ev3> | If I don't create something I find nice to use, I have no purpose in life. |
| 03:49 | <@Ev3> | And that's just sad. |
| 03:50 | <@McMartin> | I disbelieve that you are paid a living wage to make 0.0003% performance improvements that aren't actually necessary. |
| 03:50 | <@Ev3> | I make a living making modules for sharepoint. |
| 03:50 | <@Ev3> | And if they drag the system down too much, they're no good. |
| 03:50 | <@Ev3> | Sharepoint itself is already draggy. |
| 03:51 | <@Ev3> | Which've led me to consider, and reconsider rewriting the entire thing. |
| 03:51 | <@McMartin> | Yes, but you've forgotten the Third Rule of Optimization. |
| 03:51 | <@Ev3> | Likely. |
| 03:51 | <@Ev3> | I never knew there were any rules. |
| 03:51 | <@McMartin> | Rule One: Don't Do It. |
| 03:51 | <@McMartin> | Rule Two (for experts only): Don't Do It Yet. |
| 03:52 | <@McMartin> | Rule Three: If you *do* do it, use a profiler to figure out where the time and space are going, and tune that. |
| 03:52 | < Janus> | Profilers are mighty nice, even kiddies like me use 'em~ |
| 03:52 | <@McMartin> | Rules One and Two can be stated less snarkily as "Efficiency is only a concern when it is measurably not present" |
| 03:53 | <@McMartin> | And your profiler has told you that your system is laggy and slowed down because of... 4k of space hogged up by explorer.exe? |
| 03:54 | <@McMartin> | More to the point, unless you're regularly thrashing your system by exhausting physical memory, optimizing for space is entirely wasted time. |
| 03:54 | < Mischief> | Explorer on my system is hogging 22 physical, 15 Virtual |
| 03:54 | < Mischief> | =P |
| 03:55 | <@Ev3> | McMartin, I already told you. I'm not doing it because I need to, but because I can. |
| 03:55 | <@ReivClass> | I have until friday! |
| 03:55 | | ReivClass is now known as Reiver |
| 03:55 | <@Ev3> | Yay! |
| 03:55 | <@Reiver> | He was most sympathetic for my little brother. |
| 03:55 | <@Reiver> | And for the fact that I have indeed been spending time looking after him. |
| 03:55 | <@McMartin> | Speaking of whom |
| 03:55 | <@McMartin> | How's he doing? |
| 03:55 | <@Reiver> | He's still in hospital, last I heard (last night) |
| 03:55 | <@McMartin> | Mischief: 4k was how much he managed to save. |
| 03:55 | <@Reiver> | Sleeping a lot. Not moving a lot. |
| 03:56 | <@Reiver> | Given he has concussion, and bruised ribs, this is not surprising. |
| 03:56 | <@McMartin> | In other words, one page. |
| 03:56 | <@McMartin> | Reiver: Last I'd heard he could have had smashed bones or organ failure or whatnot, so this is good news |
| 03:57 | | Myst [~SouthernM@Nightstar-26801.fv.dl.cox.net] has joined #Code |
| 04:24 | | Janus [~Cerulean@Nightstar-10302.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: 10%] |
| 04:24 | < Mischief> | Ahhh |
| 04:26 | <@Reiver> | McM: Oh! |
| 04:26 | <@Reiver> | http://reaverta.livejournal.com/ |
| 04:27 | <@Reiver> | I did an updatey thing when I found out he was OK. |
| 04:27 | <@Reiver> | I haven't done one since since because since then, he's not done much other than been in the clear. |
| 04:28 | < Myst> | has he been discharged & sent home yet? |
| 04:30 | <@Reiver> | Not yet. |
| 04:31 | <@Reiver> | Parents are going up to visit him tonight. |
| 04:31 | <@Reiver> | Well, in like an hour. |
| 04:31 | <@Reiver> | They may pack him off home at this point, we don't know yet. |
| 04:36 | | * Myst nods |
| 05:16 | | * Raif steals Reiver's assignment. |
| 05:16 | | * McMartin eyes his code. "It's legitimate research[if NPC is conciliatory]. [otherwise], dammit! [end if]" |
| 05:17 | <@Vornicus> | hee |
| 05:17 | | * Raif dun get it. |
| 05:18 | <@McMartin> | I just was amused that I did a mood-check there. |
| 05:18 | <@Reiver> | Raif: You can have it. |
| 05:18 | <@Reiver> | Can I have it back, complete, by friday please? Cheers. |
| 05:19 | < Raif> | Oh, I get it... |
| 05:19 | < Raif> | I was getting stuck on the syntax... NWN I presume? |
| 05:19 | <@McMartin> | I7. |
| 05:19 | <@Vornicus> | Inform 7. |
| 05:19 | < Raif> | Reiver: It's already complete. |
| 05:19 | < Raif> | It doesn't work, and will fail, but it's finished. :) |
| 05:23 | | * McMartin doesn't really do "mods". |
| 05:23 | <@Reiver> | :p |
| 05:23 | < Raif> | Nor I, but Baldur's Gate's resource files looked a lot like that. |
| 05:24 | <@McMartin> | That's because string interpolation is a standard sort of thing. |
| 05:24 | <@McMartin> | Well, conditionals aren't standard in normal programming languages. |
| 05:24 | <@McMartin> | But they do tend to show up in languages that are intended for tricky text manipulation. |
| 05:24 | < Raif> | Well, my train of thought was more "BG looked like that, and the same company made NWN, therefore it's probably NWN script". :) |
| 05:25 | | * McMartin has been working steadily since April or so on a text-based adventure game based on his old webcomic. |
| 05:25 | < Raif> | Plus it's not terribly tricky... all dialogue trees I've seen are pretty basic. |
| 05:26 | < Raif> | Ahh... |
| 05:26 | <@McMartin> | I7 defaults to ASK NPC ABOUT TOPIC and TELL NPC ABOUT TOPIC unless you mess with it |
| 05:26 | < Raif> | Cool. |
| 05:26 | | * McMartin has messed with it slightly to do "dialogue tree"-like things for snap reactions. |
| 05:26 | < Raif> | what kinda text adventure? Like Monkey Island without the graphics, or are you shooting for Infocom? :P |
| 05:27 | <@McMartin> | I would humbly submit that I've already beaten Infocom. |
| 05:27 | <@McMartin> | Well, early Infocom. |
| 05:28 | < Raif> | Excellent. |
| 05:28 | <@McMartin> | That's actually a fairly low bar, these days. |
| 05:28 | <@McMartin> | It actually runs on the Infocom VM. |
| 05:28 | <@McMartin> | Hence the name "Inform" for the language |
| 05:28 | < Raif> | Yeah it is... I remember back in the day that was high falutin' text processin'. |
| 05:28 | <@McMartin> | Those parts have actually been basically solved problems since the mid-1980s. |
| 05:28 | < Raif> | Never heard of Inform... |
| 05:28 | <@McMartin> | http://www.inform-fiction.org |
| 05:29 | < Raif> | I remember writing one of those when I was trying to make a BBS game. |
| 05:29 | <@McMartin> | Inform and TADS are the two major Interactive Fiction languages present these days. |
| 05:29 | < Raif> | (I gave up, didn't want to build all the resources) |
| 05:29 | <@McMartin> | The main question in IF is "OK, so what can we do with this," and that's been a subject of inquiry for about 15 years now by a reasonably-sized community |
| 05:29 | | Chalcy [~Chalceon@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #code |
| 05:30 | | mode/#code [+o Chalcy] by ChanServ |
| 05:30 | <@McMartin> | This is my first "serious" work, though. |
| 05:30 | < Raif> | Ah. |
| 05:30 | <@McMartin> | I have a few other ones that involve doing things like getting killed for failing to give kittens 10s |
| 05:30 | < Raif> | ? |
| 05:30 | <@McMartin> | http://www.stanford.edu/~mcmartin/if/avalon/ |
| 05:31 | <@McMartin> | Actually, http://www.stanford.edu/~mcmartin/if/ in general. |
| 05:31 | | Chalcedon [~Chalceon@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 05:31 | < Raif> | Fun. |
| 05:31 | <@McMartin> | The WS:P entry on that main page has some frame story and the first major puzzle setpiece in the game I'm working on. |
| 05:31 | < Raif> | Yeah, this is the stuff I'd hate... I like building the engines and am downright miserable actually building a game on top of them. |
| 05:32 | <@McMartin> | People who try to build text parsers from scratch tend to do miserable jobs of it. |
| 05:33 | <@McMartin> | At least compared to, say, TADS and Inform, both of which have roughly 15 years of development in them. |
| 05:33 | <@McMartin> | Not counting pre-existing theoretical work. |
| 05:33 | < Raif> | Mine was infocom-like... |
| 05:33 | <@McMartin> | Infocom Standard includes: |
| 05:33 | <@McMartin> | > SAILOR, TAKE EVERYTHING BUT THE ROPE FROM THE BOX |
| 05:33 | < Raif> | Basic <verb> <noun> with|from <noun>, etc. |
| 05:33 | < Raif> | Like the first zork. :P |
| 05:34 | <@McMartin> | And actually, by Spellbreaker, included > WRITE FRUNGY ON CUBE and then thenceforth being able to call that the FRUNGY CUBE |
| 05:34 | < Raif> | That's Beyond Zorkish. |
| 05:34 | <@Vornicus> | Frungy Frungy Frungy! |
| 05:34 | <@McMartin> | Those are both Spellbreaker-level, which is well before Beyond Zork, I think |
| 05:34 | | * McMartin checks |
| 05:35 | < Raif> | I had something similar... but it was pretty much in the resource. |
| 05:35 | <@McMartin> | 2 years |
| 05:35 | <@McMartin> | And yeah |
| 05:35 | < Raif> | IE: You do something to an object, and it becomes a new object. "Dye cube purple" -> "get purple cube", or "get cube" if there weren't any green cubes, etc. |
| 05:36 | <@McMartin> | Well, that's just an implementation detail. |
| 05:36 | < Raif> | Indeed. |
| 05:36 | <@McMartin> | That also doesn't work for arbitrary text, of course~ |
| 05:36 | < Raif> | Nopenope. :) |
| 05:36 | < Raif> | Beyond zork was impressive in its complexity. |
| 05:36 | < Raif> | In fact, it was so impressive I never finished the damn thing. |
| 05:36 | <@McMartin> | Mmm. The SAILOR, TAKE STUFF was at least available in 1983 |
| 05:37 | <@McMartin> | Mmm. |
| 05:37 | | * McMartin didn't like what he saw of Beyond Zork. |
| 05:37 | <@McMartin> | I had fun with the Enchanter Trilogy though. |
| 05:37 | < Raif> | I had issues with the atmosphere... it was a lot more hostile. |
| 05:37 | < Raif> | (I died about 4 times before I got out of the tavern you start in) |
| 05:38 | <@McMartin> | Heh |
| 05:38 | <@McMartin> | Also heh at http://www.inform-fiction.org/manual/html/s48.html which spends a fair amount of time mocking its intro~ |
| 05:38 | < Raif> | As I recall, you start by fighting crabs and rats and stuff to get a bottle of wine, then you get into the tavern and if you do anything wrong someone will throw a knife at you. |
| 05:39 | < Raif> | I also vaguely remember an onion, and some sort of vicious dust bunny... |
| 05:40 | <@McMartin> | I think my favorite Infocom game is actually Nord and Bert Couldn't Make Head or Tail of It |
| 05:40 | <@McMartin> | > READ WAITRESS THE RIOT ACT |
| 05:41 | <@Vornicus> | hee |
| 05:41 | < Raif> | I enjoyed the zork games... and ballyhoo. |
| 05:41 | < Raif> | Ballyhoo was all about a creepy circus. :) |
| 05:41 | <@McMartin> | N&B is, in fact, based almost entirely on puns. |
| 05:41 | < Raif> | My favorite: there were two lines. Every time you tried to get into the short line everyone would file into it just ahead of you. Solution: Get into the long line. |
| 05:42 | < Raif> | (Fairly basic, but amusing) |
| 05:42 | <@McMartin> | Well, there was also the bit based on spoonerisms, where you could transmute a pretty girl to a gritty pearl by referring to her as such. |
| 05:42 | < Raif> | That's pretty cool. |
| 05:42 | <@McMartin> | N&B is... impossible to render as anything other than text. |
| 05:43 | < Raif> | I'll have to download that. |
| 05:43 | <@McMartin> | Enchanter's good, too. |
| 05:43 | <@McMartin> | It's kinda sorta but not really Zork IV. |
| 05:43 | | * Vornicus recommends Spider & Web |
| 05:43 | <@McMartin> | Yes, but S&W is modern |
| 05:43 | < Raif> | Yeah, the Enchanter games were really good... |
| 05:44 | < Raif> | Those had killer atmosphere. |
| 05:44 | <@McMartin> | You are falling towards the ground, wind whipping around you. |
| 05:44 | <@McMartin> | >east |
| 05:44 | <@McMartin> | Down seems more likely. |
| 05:44 | < Raif> | LOL |
| 05:44 | <@McMartin> | (From Spellbreaker, the third Enchanter game) |
| 05:44 | < Raif> | Wasn't that one of the dreams? |
| 05:44 | <@McMartin> | No, that was just before the roc sequence. |
| 05:45 | < Raif> | I liked the endless road, as well. |
| 05:45 | < Raif> | And that you could frotz just about anything. :) |
| 05:45 | <@McMartin> | > OZMOO PHONE BOOTH |
| 05:47 | <@McMartin> | > NITFOL PANTS |
| 05:47 | < Raif> | http://www.the-underdogs.info/game.php?id=1500 |
| 05:47 | < Raif> | Hee hee. |
| 05:47 | <@Vornicus> | say what? |
| 05:47 | < Raif> | I love the underdogs. |
| 05:49 | < Raif> | Hey, they have ballyhoo. |
| 06:00 | | Chalcy is now known as Chalcedon |
| 06:00 | | Thaqui is now known as ThaquiWr0king |
| 06:05 | < Raif> | Yeah... this brings me back. |
| 06:06 | < Raif> | I'd better go to bed before they attach the bear trap. |
| 06:06 | | * McMartin also recommends, for "cannot be graphical", The Gostak. |
| 06:06 | <@McMartin> | The goal of The Gostak is to distim the doshes. |
| 06:06 | <@McMartin> | But the lutt to the doshery is crenned with glauds! |
| 06:07 | <@McMartin> | But you are the gostak! Not glaud can vorl the doshes from you. At least, not for long. |
| 06:07 | <@McMartin> | s/Not/No/ |
| 06:23 | | Chalcy [~Chalceon@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #code |
| 06:23 | | mode/#code [+o Chalcy] by ChanServ |
| 06:24 | | Chalcedon [~Chalceon@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by Chalcy))] |
| 06:24 | | Chalcy is now known as Chalcedon |
| 07:15 | | Vornicus is now known as Vornicus-Latens |
| 07:20 | <@McMartin> | Eesh. |
| 07:21 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 07:21 | | * McMartin will hold off on actually implementing the 23 necessary topics until tomorrow, he thinks. |
| 07:23 | <@McMartin> | That is, incidentally, "23 topics that came to mind before actually letting the testers have at it" |
| 07:31 | | Chalcy [~Chalceon@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #code |
| 07:31 | | mode/#code [+o Chalcy] by ChanServ |
| 07:32 | <@Reiver> | Ni, McM? |
| 07:33 | | Chalcedon [~Chalceon@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 07:38 | | Chalcy is now known as Chalcedon |
| 07:40 | <@McMartin> | Not quite yet |
| 07:40 | <@McMartin> | Just not in the mood for writing just now |
| 07:41 | | * Reiver nods. |
| 07:53 | | * Reiver concludes his biggest obstical to coding right now si that he can't feel his hands. |
| 07:53 | | * Reiver decides to investigate the location of his gloves. >.> |
| 07:58 | < Myst> | yes ... feeling your hands would be helpful ... |
| 08:19 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
| 08:30 | | * Chalcedon apply heat to Reiver |
| 08:45 | | Reiver [~reaverta@IRCop.Nightstar.Net] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
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| 08:48 | | mode/#code [+o Reiver] by ChanServ |
| 08:49 | | Netsplit DeepThought.NY.US.Nightstar.Net <-> Troika.TX.US.Nightstar.Net quits: @Pi, @jerith, @Chalain |
| 08:49 | | Netsplit over, joins: Chalain, jerith, Pi |
| 08:49 | | mode/#code [+o Chalain] by ChanServ |
| 08:49 | | mode/#code [+o jerith] by ChanServ |
| 08:49 | | mode/#code [+o Pi] by ChanServ |
| 09:04 | | Chalcedon is now known as ChalcyTidying |
| 09:10 | <@Reiver> | Just got off phone - Brother will be collected tomorrow. They're keeping him another night just in case. |
| 09:11 | < EvilDarkLord> | Er... what's happened to him? Everyone but myself appears to know. |
| 09:37 | <@Reiver> | http://reaverta.livejournal.com/+ |
| 09:37 | <@Reiver> | -+ |
| 09:37 | <@Reiver> | http://reaverta.livejournal.com/ |
| 09:40 | | ChalcyTidying is now known as ChalcyZzz |
| 09:41 | | * EvilDarkLord reads, nods. |
| 09:43 | | * EvilDarkLord also eyes how much is hinging on your java. Seriously, if you think I can help, do ask. |
| 09:44 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[wr0k] |
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| 10:06 | | Netsplit DeepThought.NY.US.Nightstar.Net <-> Troika.TX.US.Nightstar.Net quits: @Pi, @jerith, @Chalain |
| 10:06 | | Netsplit over, joins: Chalain, jerith |
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| 15:40 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
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| 17:02 | | ClassyMyst is now known as Myst |
| 17:13 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 17:37 | | Vornicus [~vorn@Nightstar-18307.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #code |
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| 17:56 | | ChalcyZzz [~Chalceon@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #code |
| 17:57 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
| 17:58 | | ChalcyZzz is now known as Chalcedon |
| 18:07 | <@jerith> | Evening all. |
| 18:08 | < Janus> | Howdy sir jerith. |
| 18:09 | | * jerith checks his neck for signs of knighting. |
| 18:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hmm. Who here has crazy make-fu? |
| 18:54 | | * Vornicus has minor make-fu, but it's decidedly not crazy. |
| 18:55 | <@jerith> | I have moderate make-fu... |
| 18:55 | <@jerith> | But I seldom compile anything but Java these days. |
| 18:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hmm. |
| 18:56 | < Janus> | I have make-flu, which just makes my sinuses the size of golf balls at the mere mention of them. |
| 18:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | What I want is a way to change Make's wd to ../bin and VPATH to ../src for every target except clean. |
| 18:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | butIcandiscussthislaterbecauseIhaveclassinhalfanhourBYE! |
| 18:57 | <@jerith> | Cheers TF. |
| 18:58 | < Janus> | God Speed Mr. Frog~ *nose-bleeds* |
| 19:00 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 19:10 | | aoanla [~sam@Nightstar-24717.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #code |
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| 19:16 | | Chalcy is now known as Chalcedon |
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| 19:37 | <@Vornicus> | gnar. i need to get a daatbase dump from a machine I have access to but don't have the password for. |
| 19:38 | <@TheWatcher> | physical access? ¬¬ |
| 19:38 | <@Vornicus> | Not physical access |
| 19:38 | <@TheWatcher> | hm, bugger |
| 19:38 | <@TheWatcher> | what database server? |
| 19:38 | <@Vornicus> | I have /root/, i just don't have the database password |
| 19:38 | <@Vornicus> | Postgres 8.1 |
| 19:39 | <@Vornicus> | oh, and I'm on Windows, too |
| 19:40 | <@Vornicus> | I can get in with PGAdmin or PSQL, and that gives me a role listing for postgres, but it's gone through a hash. |
| 19:40 | <@TheWatcher> | pg_dump helps not? |
| 19:44 | <@Vornicus> | nope. |
| 19:46 | <@TheWatcher> | hrm |
| 19:47 | <@Vornicus> | and I can't dump without the postgres password. |
| 19:47 | <@Vornicus> | gnar gnar gnar |
| 19:49 | <@TheWatcher> | http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-admin/2002-06/msg00197.php - help at all? |
| 19:54 | <@Vornicus> | not really; it assumes Linux, and postgres 7. |
| 19:54 | <@Vornicus> | I can't seem to change the password for the superuser without already knowing it - which is a very reasonable precaution, all told. |
| 19:55 | <@Vornicus> | but man it's annoying. |
| 20:07 | | Mischief [~34534@Nightstar-3282.ashbva.adelphia.net] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 21:39 | | Drachen [~Drachen@65.160.21.ns-2925] has joined #code |
| 21:39 | < Drachen> | Hello everybody here. |
| 21:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | Alright. To start with, what do you know about runlevels? |
| 21:39 | < Drachen> | and those of you who aren't hear but with us in spirit |
| 21:40 | < Drachen> | um, I know that 0 is off and 6 is reboot, 123 are vaugly known to me and 45 are for xwindows/gnome/kde/gui uses right? |
| 21:40 | < Drachen> | er 1,2,3 and 4,5 |
| 21:40 | < Drachen> | or is 0 reboot and 6 kill? |
| 21:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | 0 is shutdown, 6 is reboot. |
| 21:40 | < Drachen> | k |
| 21:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | 1 is single-user, 2 is multiuser without RPC, 3 is full multiuser, 5 is X11. |
| 21:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | 4 isn't used by Fedora, Ubuntu might user it for something. |
| 21:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | Anyways - each runlevel, among other things, has an associated list of services that should be running during that runlevel - IOW, stuff that should be started, or stopped, when moving from another runlevel to that one. |
| 21:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | These services are controlled from the scripts in /etc/init.d |
| 21:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | Each runlevel has a corresponding /etc/rcX.d directory. |
| 21:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | This directory contains symlinks to the control scripts in /etc/init.d; how the symlink is named determines how init(8) handles it when moving between runlevels. |
| 21:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | In particular: |
| 21:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | - if it starts with K, the service is killed, by calling "script-name stop" |
| 21:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | - if it starts with S, the service is started, by calling "script-name start" |
| 21:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | - the scripts are processed in lexicographical sort order, so they are typically "KxxName" and "SxxName", where the xx is a two-digit number that can be adjusted to change the order in which they are processed. |
| 21:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | So. |
| 21:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | If all you want to do is change the configuration so that something currently started at a given runlevel isn't, or something that isn't started is, it's easy. |
| 21:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | You go into the directory for the runlevel you want to adjust, find the S- or K-link for that service, and rename it to a K- or S-link. |
| 21:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | If you want to add a new service, it's somewhat more complex. |
| 21:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | You have to write a script in /etc/init.d that controls it (it must understand at least 'start' and 'stop', and should also understand 'status' and 'restart'). |
| 21:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | Then, you have to create a K- or S-link to it in each rc*.d directory. |
| 21:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | All clear? |
| 21:52 | < Drachen> | sorry let me read the scroll back, I was afk |
| 21:53 | < Drachen> | ok that makes sense |
| 21:55 | | * Vornicus is enlightened. |
| 21:56 | | * Syloqs-AFH is finally asleep |
| 21:56 | < Syloqs-AFH> | thanks tf |
| 22:01 | | Mischief [~34534@Nightstar-3282.ashbva.adelphia.net] has joined #Code |
| 22:28 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 22:32 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
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| 22:42 | <@Vornicus> | http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1104341<;--- things that, on balance, you probably shouldn't do to your computer. |
| 22:48 | | * Janus would have used Castor oil himself. |
| 22:48 | <@Vornicus> | that's not very tasty on fries. |
| 22:50 | < Janus> | Oh, right. Chips are frieds down there. |
| 22:50 | < Janus> | *fries too. |
| 22:50 | <@Vornicus> | yes |
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| 23:46 | < Janus> | ...May I ask a question, please? It's pretty general, but important too. |
| 23:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh? |
| 23:48 | < Janus> | Well... I was trying to add in the whole thing for the attacking stuff, but I found I was adding little bits here, retouching this there, and after about 15 minutes, I forgot what I was trying to do in the first place. |
| 23:48 | <@Vornicus> | You can ask all the questions you want. If we don't want to answer, we won't. :) |
| 23:48 | < Janus> | Is there any method for... say... keeping more organized? |
| 23:48 | < Janus> | Touche'~ |
| 23:50 | <@Vornicus> | Get a whiteboard, write down your goal for the (period of time) on it. |
| 23:51 | <@Vornicus> | depending on your goals, (period of time) can be anything from hour to year. |
| 23:51 | < Janus> | I wish I had a big whiteboard, but I've only been able to do that in a few notebooks, in Wordpad, and even in Paint. (quite the works of art, they are.) |
| 23:52 | <@Vornicus> | The point is really to have a stated goal that is always before you. |
| 23:55 | < Janus> | Aye, alright, so I should stay focused on one thing at a time, right? |
| 23:55 | <@Vornicus> | If you don't work constantly maximized (I do, so it doesn't work for me) you can use your desktop background |
| 23:56 | <@Vornicus> | Alternatively - and this is one of the powers of test-first design - you can write a test that will fail until the thing you want to finish is done, and then just run tests constantly. |
| 23:56 | < Janus> | Everything feels weird if there's windows floating around, so they are maximized most of the time. |
| 23:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hmm. I need some way to split NEdit horizontally. |
| 23:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Err, vertically. |
| 23:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | Since I adhere to 80-col page widths, there's lots and lots of wasted space if I work maximized. |
| 23:58 | <@Vornicus> | (doing tests like that also reduces your epsilon, in general - to write a test you must have enough of the stuff around it defined, so big chunks of stuff don't generally have obvious tests) |
| --- Log closed Wed Oct 18 00:00:03 2006 |