| --- Log opened Fri Oct 13 00:00:04 2006 |
| --- Day changed Fri Oct 13 2006 |
| 00:00 | <@Pi> | But I personally own (and maintain) several apps over 50kloc. In C++, again. |
| 00:00 | < caps[t-2]> | 100kloc is big. |
| 00:00 | < caps[t-2]> | Especially since that's hard to maintain. |
| 00:00 | <@Pi> | Nontrivial apps are hard to maintain. It's part of what makes them nontrivial. |
| 00:01 | <@Vornicus> | 10kloc is about the start of "medium" and is about twice the size of "nontrivial" |
| 00:01 | <@Vornicus> | in C++ |
| 00:01 | <@Pi> | You and I are probably working on different values of "trivial". |
| 00:01 | <@Pi> | I should probably revise mine to "easy" instead. |
| 00:01 | | * caps[t-2] ponders the size of his projects, and the definition of "nontrivial". |
| 00:01 | <@Vornicus> | And different valeus of a line of code, and different values of application. |
| 00:02 | < caps[t-2]> | I should probably revise my definition of "hard". |
| 00:02 | <@Pi> | My concept has been pretty warped in the last five years at a pro software shop. To me, trivial means "can be built and maintained by a single developer in less than a month." |
| 00:02 | < caps[t-2]> | Since I'm currently set to the conventional British level of understatement. |
| 00:03 | | caps[t-2] [~sam@Nightstar-16652.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] |
| 00:03 | <@Vornicus> | mm. trivial to me is something like "I can sprint to it in three days" |
| 00:04 | <@Pi> | Actually, forget the "less than a month" part. I kinda treat trivial as anything that can be fully specced, designed, coded, and maintained by a single developer. |
| 00:05 | <@Pi> | I understand that this probably sounds like snobbery. |
| 00:05 | <@Vornicus> | that's a hell of a lot of trivial programs in the world. |
| 00:05 | <@Pi> | Indeed. |
| 00:05 | <@Pi> | Which is why I probably need a new word. |
| 00:06 | <@Vornicus> | Many of which would not be trivial by any stretch of the imagination except to certain people with a very specific skillset. |
| 00:06 | <@Pi> | To my mind at least, this is a very different classification from those things that need dev teams. |
| 00:06 | <@Pi> | Because the level of complexity of production goes up by an order of magnitude the moment you introduce more than one developer. |
| 00:06 | <@McMartin> | The usual claim is "square of the number of developers" |
| 00:07 | | The-Librarian-Away is now known as The-Librarian |
| 00:07 | < The-Librarian> | ah crap |
| 00:07 | < The-Librarian> | distracted by shiny things again |
| 00:07 | < The-Librarian> | what the hell was I doing/ |
| 00:07 | < The-Librarian> | ? |
| 00:07 | <@Vornicus> | how about "trivial" is something that, if you ask an average dev, "that's pretty easy" is the answer you get, "nontrivial" is the stuff that a single developer could do but he'd have to really work at it, and "complex" is the devteam stuff. |
| 00:07 | | * Pi shugs |
| 00:08 | < The-Librarian> | oh, and btw, I was talking about a *Rails* app, and the loc I was talking about are the loc that the developer(s) need to type in |
| 00:08 | < The-Librarian> | not including anything that rails provides. |
| 00:08 | <@Pi> | McM - Useful rule of thumb, but don't count on the ratio exactly for low numbers of devs. The curve is much, MUCH steeper than that. |
| 00:09 | < The-Librarian> | and not including testing loc |
| 00:10 | < The-Librarian> | generally, in a rails app with a proper test suite (i.e. not mine), your test loc will be about 1.5x your app's loc |
| 00:11 | <@Vornicus> | Rails is boilerplateboilerplateboilerplate |
| 00:11 | <@Pi> | When every web-based database app looks like a nail..... |
| 00:12 | <@Vornicus> | yes |
| 00:12 | < The-Librarian> | the thing with rails is that 5% of the work is going to take 90% of the time. |
| 00:12 | < The-Librarian> | which I like. Means I don't have to mess much with the routine scutwork |
| 00:15 | < The-Librarian> | also, you can't say that rails is no good because it doesn't suit 100% of projects |
| 00:17 | <@Pi> | Sure I can. |
| 00:20 | < The-Librarian> | you can, but that doesn't mean I have to listen to you. |
| 00:20 | | * The-Librarian drops a banana peel on Pi's head |
| 00:26 | <@Vornicus> | Rails mainly scares me because it feels a lot like wizard code. |
| 00:28 | < The-Librarian> | you don't trust something that's willing to do so much work for you |
| 00:30 | < The-Librarian> | seems to me to be a little bit like being scared of sitting down in a yellow car with a sign on top and saying "Take me to the airport" |
| 00:30 | < The-Librarian> | and letting the taxi do the work |
| 00:32 | <@Vornicus> | It's a little bit more like being scared of sitting down in a yellow /spacecraft/ with a sign on top and saying "Take me to Mars" |
| 00:33 | < The-Librarian> | ah. |
| 00:33 | <@Pi> | For me it's not fear. It's distrust. |
| 00:33 | < The-Librarian> | just that it's so new, then. |
| 00:33 | < The-Librarian> | Pi: for you, that's normal. |
| 00:33 | <@Pi> | I don't trust anything that tells me that it has abstracted away all the ugly bits, I don't need to knwo, so sit down, shut up, and enjoy the ride. |
| 00:33 | <@Pi> | Because the abstraction WILL leak. |
| 00:33 | < The-Librarian> | it's all the FUD being passed around at your workplace. |
| 00:33 | <@Vornicus> | Oh, and in this analogy I am a rocket scientist. I know exactly how hard it is to get me there. |
| 00:34 | <@Pi> | Cheap shot, Oggy. Go ahead and believe that. Makes it easier to discount the possibility that I might have a clue what I'm talking about. |
| 00:35 | <@Vornicus> | Frankly I could live with some more abstraction on certain levels - I still haven't figured out how to burn a CD from the command line in Linux, where it's a, like, three click operation in the GUI. |
| 00:36 | | Jan[dinnerino] is now known as Janus |
| 00:38 | < The-Librarian> | Pi: I had to take it, you know that. |
| 00:38 | < The-Librarian> | but seriously, it's not like things are hidden from you |
| 00:39 | < The-Librarian> | you can still open the hood and look inside |
| 00:39 | < The-Librarian> | it's just that you don't *need* to if you don't want to |
| 00:39 | < The-Librarian> | and it favors convention over configuration, so if you follow the conventions you don't really have to tell it exactly what you need. |
| 00:39 | < The-Librarian> | like if you fire a controller method, you don't have to tell it render :page => "mymethod" |
| 00:40 | < The-Librarian> | because it assumes it's supposed to render a view named the same as the method |
| 00:58 | < The-Librarian> | either way, I can understand your viewpoints |
| 00:59 | <@Vornicus> | oh, and if it blows up, it's /my/ fault, and people will yell at me. |
| 00:59 | < The-Librarian> | I haven't had mine blow up yet in any way that wasn't caused by me. |
| 00:59 | <@Vornicus> | or, as it were, the bits that manage to survive reentry. |
| 00:59 | < The-Librarian> | well... strike that... |
| 01:00 | < The-Librarian> | the last three times it blew up on my boss but worked fine for me... I finally figured out why... She was using Firefox 1.0 Preview |
| 01:00 | | * Vornicus won't use wizard code that he doesn't understand. Rails is wizard code, so. |
| 01:00 | < The-Librarian> | that's cool |
| 01:01 | | * Vornicus highly recommends The Pragmatic Programmer. |
| 01:01 | < The-Librarian> | I've spent countless hours diving through the guts of Rails. |
| 01:01 | < The-Librarian> | because I wanted to understand how it was doing what it was doing |
| 01:02 | < The-Librarian> | and now, things go really fast for me, up until I hit the bits where I'm dealing with javascript |
| 01:02 | < The-Librarian> | blah. |
| 01:02 | <@Vornicus> | Javascript is voodoo. |
| 01:03 | < The-Librarian> | it doesn't seem to have any standards or conventions |
| 01:03 | < The-Librarian> | ; is required to terminate lines, except when it's not. |
| 01:03 | < The-Librarian> | ' and " are interchangeable, except when they're not. |
| 01:03 | < The-Librarian> | it's CaSe SeNsItIvE, except where it's not. |
| 01:03 | < The-Librarian> | there doesn't seem to be any such thing as "always" with javascript |
| 01:04 | < The-Librarian> | and there's three sets of reference docs for it; Microsoft's, Netscape's, and something or other ecmascript |
| 01:04 | < The-Librarian> | and they all three disagree with each other |
| 01:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | ECMAScript is, supposedly, the language referece. MS and Netscape are for the corresponding implementations. Opera probably has its own. None of them are compatible. |
| 01:05 | < The-Librarian> | and then there's this whole "three different ways to access the DOM" thing |
| 01:05 | < The-Librarian> | I'm just ignoring that last bit. If you're using an old-ass browser, I have zero sympathy for you. |
| 01:06 | <@McMartin> | I need to learn at least the core ECMAScript at some point. |
| 01:06 | < The-Librarian> | if it weren't for the fact that 80% of people use IE, I'd ignore IE as well, when it comes to html and CSS |
| 01:06 | < The-Librarian> | especially CSS |
| 01:06 | < The-Librarian> | IE totally misses the boat on that one. |
| 01:06 | <@McMartin> | I can't shake that Messing With DOMs is probably the easiest way to do GUIs in this day and age. |
| 01:06 | < The-Librarian> | McMartin: yeah. |
| 01:06 | <@McMartin> | I hear IE7 actually does noticably better at that, but I haven't actually tried it. |
| 01:07 | < The-Librarian> | I've got a cool little image management thingy in my app that lets you sort the images by dragging and dropping them |
| 01:08 | < The-Librarian> | it uses the prototype and scriptaculous javascript libraries and a Rails helper |
| 01:08 | < The-Librarian> | it was easy to set up and works quite well |
| 01:08 | < The-Librarian> | and I'm terribly glad I didn't have to hand-code it. |
| 01:09 | <@Vornicus> | http://unspeakablevorn.livejournal.com/9678.html <--- |
| 01:10 | < The-Librarian> | looks fine in Fx/Win |
| 01:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | Librarian: ignoring which last bit? |
| 01:10 | <@Vornicus> | where does the fraction line fall? |
| 01:10 | < The-Librarian> | oh, wait. |
| 01:10 | < The-Librarian> | yeah, above the line |
| 01:11 | < The-Librarian> | ToxicFrog: ignoring the whole "three or thirty-seven different ways to access the DOM" |
| 01:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | McM: yeah. Occasionally I toy with the idea of modifying Gecko so that you can call Lua instead of Javascript from it and using that to make my GUIs. |
| 01:11 | < The-Librarian> | all modern browsers understand one set of DOM instructions. |
| 01:12 | < The-Librarian> | ok, this is horrible. Purple Haze as performed by a string quartet. |
| 01:12 | < The-Librarian> | what the HELL were they thinking??!! |
| 01:12 | <@McMartin> | TF: ... Can you make a code generator? |
| 01:12 | <@McMartin> | The-Librarian: GIVE TO ZIM |
| 01:12 | < The-Librarian> | McMartin: it was on XM |
| 01:12 | < The-Librarian> | and I changed the channel. |
| 01:14 | <@Vornicus> | TF: how about Python or Ruby or C++ or... |
| 01:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: since I'm currently working on Lua, those are secondary priorities. |
| 01:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | Especially since you can call into C from Lua trivially, and call from C into any of the above. |
| 01:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | And Glade might even do what I want, in which case I'll likely drop this idea entirely. |
| 01:21 | <@Vornicus> | true |
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| 01:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | (however, it's entirely possible that Glade will do what I want but GTK+ will not, in which case it's back to the drawing board.) |
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| 01:23 | < The-Librarian> | usability question. Is the average user going to know what a "snippet of text" is? |
| 01:23 | <@Vornicus> | depends on how it's used. |
| 01:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | Possibly the drawing board that results in my writing a GUI toolkit on top of SDL. |
| 01:24 | <@Vornicus> | It is likely to be okay, but if you use it in an odd way... |
| 01:25 | < The-Librarian> | well it's going to be a bunch of links sitting below the Description field in an auction listing |
| 01:25 | < The-Librarian> | so, should be okay |
| 01:26 | < The-Librarian> | works for now |
| 01:26 | < The-Librarian> | can change later if needed |
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| 02:56 | | * ToxicFrog eyes C. |
| 02:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's been a while, but I could swear that "foo() || return bar;" was valid. |
| 02:57 | <@Pi> | Nope. |
| 02:57 | <@McMartin> | return isn't an expression |
| 02:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...right. |
| 02:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oops. |
| 02:57 | <@Pi> | return is one of the few statements in the language, and not an expression - what McM said. |
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| 06:02 | <@McMartin> | Hey, what do Linux people here use for network monitoring? |
| 06:06 | < Vornicus> | when I need to monitor my Linux network traffic, I usually use netstat. |
| 06:06 | < Vornicus> | Suffice it to say I have very simple needs. |
| 06:08 | <@TheWatcher[zZzZ]> | GKrellM |
| 06:08 | <@TheWatcher[zZzZ]> | Assuming I want to keep an eye on traffic levels in realtime o a graph |
| 06:12 | | Chalcedon is now known as ChalcyOut |
| 06:13 | <@TheWatcher[zZzZ]> | There used to be a windows version that wuld talk to a grellmd server running on a linux box as well, but that doen't seem to be developed anymore |
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| 07:31 | | * Reiver tries to think. |
| 07:31 | <@Reiver> | So. |
| 07:32 | <@Reiver> | I have an appointments class. After pondering things, I added an entry to it so each appointment knows which appointmentCalendar it belongs to. |
| 07:32 | < Vornicus> | but now you need to be able to tell what appointments belong to what calendar? |
| 07:33 | <@Reiver> | Yeah. And I do recall being reccomended that really, it should be the apptCalendar that knows which appointments it owns. |
| 07:33 | <@Reiver> | But that method always threw me, for some reason, although frankly I'm not really sure why. |
| 07:39 | < Ev3> | I can't seem to duplicate my Taskmgr.exe without its relations, Anyone know of a way? Also, while we're at it, anyone know just where I need to look in order to remove its minimum size? |
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| 12:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ev3: what do you mean by its relations? |
| 12:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | And, for that matter, its minimum size? |
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| 13:12 | < Ev3> | If I duplicate a task manager, and set a setting, the real task manager will have that setting set. |
| 13:12 | < Ev3> | If I duplicate a task manager, and rename it, running it will still run taskmgr.exe |
| 13:22 | < EvilDarkLord> | Hm. Maybe you could create another registry key that corresponds to the second taskmgr. |
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| 14:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 14:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | For the former, this is because it stores its settings in the registry. If you want the copy to use different keys, you'll need to open it up in a hex editor and change them. |
| 14:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | For the latter, I have no idea. |
| 14:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...and mine certainly doesn't do that. |
| 14:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | $ cp taskmgr.exe foo.exe |
| 14:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | $ foo.exe & |
| 14:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | $ pgrep foo.exe |
| 14:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | 2520 |
| 14:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | $ pgrep taskmgr.exe |
| 14:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | $ |
| 14:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | What windows are you using? |
| 15:01 | < Ev3> | XP Pro, SP1 |
| 15:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hmm. |
| 15:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | I'm on 2k, so they might have changed it. |
| 15:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | What's the underlying goal of this, anyways? There might be a better way... |
| 15:36 | < Ev3> | Underlying goal is to obliterate the taskbar. |
| 15:37 | < Ev3> | And provide a nifty alternative. |
| 15:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. The taskbar is provided by explorer.exe, not taskmgr.exe. |
| 15:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | explorer.exe also provides stuff like the desktop and the filesystem browser, so replacing it has to be done with caution. |
| 15:39 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 15:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | Litestep is a good place to start; even if it doesn't do what you want you can probably find what you're looking for in the same places. |
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| 16:05 | < Ev3> | I know what explorer.exe does. |
| 16:05 | < Ev3> | I don't use it for browsing. |
| 16:05 | < Ev3> | I use an IFrame on my background, provided by Iexplorer.exe |
| 16:05 | < Ev3> | And litestep takes up too many system resources. |
| 16:05 | < Ev3> | The goal is the opposite. |
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| 16:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | I'm just saying, the kind of software you' |
| 16:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | re looking for is of the same classification as Litestep - alternate shells - and will probably be found in the same places. |
| 16:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | Taskmgr.exe has nothing to do with it. |
| 16:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | If you use something other than explorer for filesystem browsing, you won't have to worry about that, and if you use iexplore.exe to provide your desktop, you might not have to worry about that. Not sure on that point. |
| 16:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | But I don't have any more help for you. |
| 16:09 | < Ev3> | :p |
| 16:09 | < Ev3> | The point is I don't want to run another alternative, as I don't need the service in the first place. |
| 16:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh, you want to eliminate the taskbar entirely? |
| 16:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | That's easy enough, I think. |
| 16:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | Same process as replacing explorer with litestep, except you replace it with nothing at all. |
| 16:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or, if it won't let you do that, with a dummy program that just sleep()s forever. |
| 16:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | This of course assumes that iexplore keeps working without explorer. If not, you end up without taskbar *or* desktop. |
| 16:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | (out of curiosity, what's the memory footprint on iexplore while it's running the desktop, compared to explorer? I'm seeing about 9MB on explorer, providing desktop, taskbar, and fs browser, and 3MB on Litestep, providing hotkeys and multiple desktops.) |
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| 18:49 | | * Vornicus blings |
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| 19:21 | | EvilDarkLord is now known as EvilGoneLord |
| 19:26 | | ChalcyZzz [~Chalceon@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #code |
| 19:32 | | ChalcyZzz is now known as ChalcySleepy |
| 19:46 | | aoanla [~sam@Nightstar-19071.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #code |
| 19:53 | | mikemoney [mikemoney@Nightstar-23008.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 20:01 | | * Vornicus writes a rant about comments. |
| 20:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | /* no comment */ |
| 20:07 | | ChalcySleepy is now known as Chalcedon |
| 20:35 | | Syloq [Syloq@NetAdmin.Nightstar.Net] has joined #code |
| 20:35 | | Chalcedon is now known as ChalcyNap |
| 21:30 | | ChalcyNap is now known as Chalcedon |
| 21:44 | | Chalcedon [~Chalceon@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 21:53 | | Chalcedon [~Chalceon@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #code |
| 21:53 | | mode/#code [+o Chalcedon] by ChanServ |
| 21:58 | | Vornicus [~vorn@Nightstar-18307.slkc.qwest.net] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 22:24 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 22:28 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 22:49 | | ThaquiSleep is now known as Thaqui |
| 22:51 | | Chalcedon [~Chalceon@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 23:01 | | EvilGoneLord is now known as EvilDarkLord |
| 23:12 | | MahalZzz is now known as Mahal |
| 23:16 | | Janus [~Cerulean@Nightstar-10302.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #code |
| 23:18 | | Vornicus [~vorn@Nightstar-18307.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #code |
| 23:19 | | mode/#code [+o Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| 23:37 | | EvilDarkLord [althalas@Nightstar-17046.a80-186-184-83.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 23:40 | | aoanla is now known as caps[t-2] |
| 23:45 | | caps[t-2] [~sam@Nightstar-19071.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] |
| 23:48 | | EvilDarkLord [althalas@Nightstar-17046.a80-186-184-83.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #code |
| --- Log closed Sat Oct 14 00:00:59 2006 |