| --- Log opened Thu Sep 28 00:00:03 2006 |
| 00:04 | <@Chalcedon> | indeed. |
| 00:04 | <@Chalcedon> | refers to snails I believe? |
| 00:04 | <@Chalcedon> | 'headfoot' |
| 00:04 | <@Chalcedon> | no. |
| 00:04 | <@Chalcedon> | octopi |
| 00:04 | | Chalcedon is now known as ChalcyReading |
| 00:07 | <@Vornicus> | Snails. |
| 00:07 | | MahalOut is now known as MahalGone |
| 00:07 | <@McMartin> | Snails are gastropods |
| 00:07 | <@Vornicus> | Oh, yes |
| 00:07 | <@McMartin> | octopi, squid, and nautiluses (nautili?) are cephalopods |
| 00:07 | <@Vornicus> | That's a good word too. |
| 00:08 | <@McMartin> | "...during which we will construct a HUGE GASTROBOT, to digest that fool at length in its titanium bowels!" |
| 00:08 | <@McMartin> | Speaking of the gastro- root, I require food now. |
| 00:25 | | ReivClass is now known as Reiver |
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| 00:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | ....oh fuck. |
| 00:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | I/O error writing to /dev/md1, and when I reboot, error reading superblock. |
| 00:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | How the hell? |
| 00:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | Did I just lose three disks at once or something? |
| 00:55 | <@Reiver> | ... |
| 01:07 | | * Vornicus fiddles with the linux machine some more. |
| 01:07 | <@Vornicus> | ...okay, that's a /little/ more promising than it was. |
| 01:08 | <@Vornicus> | Instead of "network unreachable" I just can't ping the gateway. |
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| 05:11 | | * McMartin turns a large batch of comments into a routine by replacing "she becomes" with "decide on" and adding a phrase definition on top of it ("To decide which agent status is the Divided Loyalties result:") |
| 05:11 | <@McMartin> | I7 is fun. |
| 05:11 | <@Vornicus> | Yes. |
| 05:11 | <@Vornicus> | I still haven't written anything in it. |
| 05:12 | <@Vornicus> | well, other than the 6-room, 1-puzzle Blingtanium Caverns. |
| 05:12 | <@McMartin> | Hey, that's bigger than the first game I uploaded to the Archive. |
| 05:12 | <@McMartin> | Which had, uh, three rooms and no puzzles. |
| 05:12 | <@Vornicus> | Yes, but yours had people. |
| 05:13 | <@McMartin> | Sssort of. |
| 05:13 | <@McMartin> | It had Zrblm. |
| 05:13 | <@McMartin> | I'm not sure Zrblm counts. |
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| 08:53 | <@Reiver> | Hey, McMartin? |
| 08:54 | <@Reiver> | I've been fiddling with the Date and Calendar classes. |
| 08:54 | <@Reiver> | Er. |
| 08:54 | <@Reiver> | I'm not entirely sure how the hell to get the two to work together. |
| 08:54 | <@Reiver> | It has proven most vexing. |
| 09:11 | <@McMartin> | I'm not really familiar with either. |
| 09:11 | <@Reiver> | Apparently they changed the Date class. |
| 09:11 | <@Reiver> | If you want to format any form of Date string, you now use the Calendar class. |
| 09:11 | <@Reiver> | It is... throwing me a bit |
| 09:14 | <@McMartin> | Mmm. Isn't there a default form for this stuff? |
| 09:16 | <@Reiver> | "Date"'s default form is microseconds since 1970. |
| 09:16 | <@Reiver> | Or something. o.o |
| 09:16 | <@McMartin> | Ah, it's a time_t. |
| 09:16 | <@McMartin> | It looks like "Calendar" does what you want. |
| 09:17 | <@McMartin> | In particular, http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/util/Calendar.html#set(int,%20int,% 20int,%20int,%20int,%20int) |
| 09:17 | <@Reiver> | Ah! |
| 09:17 | | * Reiver huggles-but-not-really McM! |
| 09:18 | <@Reiver> | So. Just include that one in and all will be shiny. Hm. |
| 09:18 | <@McMartin> | Well, you need to get a Calendar first with Calendar.getInstance(). |
| 09:18 | <@McMartin> | And then set() it |
| 09:18 | <@McMartin> | And then you can toString() it. |
| 09:18 | <@McMartin> | Date() doesn't look terribly useful. |
| 09:18 | <@Reiver> | ...Hrm. Oh. Er. |
| 09:18 | | * Reiver eyes that. |
| 09:18 | <@Reiver> | No, you're right. |
| 09:18 | | * Reiver had misparsed something. |
| 09:19 | <@Reiver> | It looks like Calendar is a wrapper for Date, sort of. To make it actually usable. >.> |
| 09:19 | <@McMartin> | Well, they used to be methods *in* Date |
| 09:19 | <@McMartin> | But then they had a shitload of timezone etc. machinery to deal with. |
| 09:19 | | * Reiver nods. |
| 09:19 | <@Reiver> | So they shifted out to class of its own? |
| 09:20 | <@McMartin> | Date represents the core time value in pretty much all modern OSes, idly. |
| 09:20 | <@McMartin> | 1970 is "The Epoch" |
| 09:20 | | * Reiver nods. |
| 09:20 | <@Reiver> | There a reason for it? |
| 09:20 | <@Reiver> | Or just figured that it was a round number for whom computers wouldn't be counting previous to? >.> |
| 09:20 | <@McMartin> | It was roughly when UNIX was written. |
| 09:20 | <@McMartin> | MS-DOS used 1980 as its epoch because that's when *it* was written. |
| 09:21 | <@Reiver> | ...That must have made life interesting for the occasional coder. |
| 09:22 | <@McMartin> | It's only an internal value. |
| 09:23 | <@McMartin> | It does also mean that there's an upcoming Y2K event in 2038 or so, when 32-bit counters run out of milliseconds. |
| 09:23 | <@Reiver> | ...Interesting. |
| 09:24 | <@Reiver> | I'm assuming the assumption is that we'll have progressed forward from such primitive systems by then?~ |
| 09:25 | <@McMartin> | Actually, this already has caused failures |
| 09:25 | <@McMartin> | That said, Zinglon is immune. |
| 09:25 | <@McMartin> | Anything with a 64-bit integer is (mostly) fine. |
| 09:25 | <@McMartin> | File formats that use 32-bit time_ts are out of luck, though. |
| 09:25 | | * Reiver nods. |
| 09:25 | | * Reiver ponders. |
| 09:25 | <@Reiver> | So as long as everything gets ported to 64-bit, we'll all be ok? >.> |
| 09:26 | <@McMartin> | This includes ZIP. The format will need changing in a decade or so. |
| 09:26 | <@Reiver> | ...ZIP uses time_ts? |
| 09:26 | | * Reiver ponders. |
| 09:27 | <@McMartin> | time_t is part of POSIX, which everything started implementing once UNIX took over the network infrastructure. |
| 09:27 | <@Reiver> | ...Right. |
| 09:29 | <@McMartin> | "January 1, 1904, was chosen as the base for the Macintosh clock because it was the first leap year of the twentieth century. [...] This means that by starting with 1904, Macintosh system programmers could save a half dozen instructions in their leap-year checking code, which they thought was way cool." |
| 09:29 | <@Reiver> | ... |
| 09:30 | <@Reiver> | Geeks. ¬¬ |
| 09:30 | <@McMartin> | It really wasn't that long ago that a half dozen instructions was Serious Savings. |
| 09:31 | <@Reiver> | ...Like when most of the first generations of our current OS's were written. |
| 09:31 | | * Reiver ponders that. |
| 09:31 | <@Reiver> | UNIX spawned Linux. |
| 09:31 | <@McMartin> | More properly, UNIX was standardized as POSIX, and Linux implemented POSIX. |
| 09:31 | <@Reiver> | Well, okay. |
| 09:31 | <@Reiver> | Other than that, though. |
| 09:32 | <@McMartin> | There were several instantiations of POSIX running around before then, all officially UNIX. |
| 09:32 | <@McMartin> | Most of which you want to stay very far away from. |
| 09:32 | <@Reiver> | There haven't really been any new OS's, have there? |
| 09:32 | <@McMartin> | BeOS. |
| 09:32 | <@McMartin> | ReactOS might count, but it's slavishly following the Win32 API. |
| 09:32 | <@Reiver> | ...I only barely recognise the name. *cough* |
| 09:32 | <@McMartin> | WinXP and Vista were both written from zero. |
| 09:32 | <@McMartin> | Win2k was based on WinNT. |
| 09:33 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[wr0k] |
| 09:33 | <@Reiver> | ...I thought WinXP was based off 2k/NT? |
| 09:33 | <@McMartin> | You can sort of claim WinNT is derived from VMS. |
| 09:33 | <@McMartin> | Nope, XP was a from-scratch recode. |
| 09:33 | | * Reiver eyes that. |
| 09:33 | <@McMartin> | That's why 2k is way more stable than XP. |
| 09:33 | <@McMartin> | In particular, VMS's designers designed WNT |
| 09:33 | <@Reiver> | I could've sworn. Huh. |
| 09:34 | <@Reiver> | And now they're starting again? ¬¬ |
| 09:34 | <@McMartin> | And WNT is so named by cycling "VMS" one letter to the right. |
| 09:34 | <@McMartin> | XP was not exactly a huge success >_> |
| 09:34 | <@Reiver> | Granted, but. |
| 09:34 | <@McMartin> | They had some Grand Plans that failed miserably with Vista. |
| 09:34 | <@Reiver> | Point. |
| 09:34 | <@Reiver> | So now it's more WinXP 2.0. |
| 09:34 | | * Reiver hrm. |
| 09:34 | <@McMartin> | It is actually probable that Vista will be an improvement of XP, but it won't be worth the upgrade cost. |
| 09:35 | | * Reiver nods. |
| 09:35 | <@McMartin> | It's definitely a bigger jump than X7 was, in terms of What It Does |
| 09:35 | <@Reiver> | (The system requirements make me wonder what they were smoking.) |
| 09:35 | <@McMartin> | Er. X11R7 |
| 09:35 | <@McMartin> | The system requirements aren't that bad, if you're starting from scratch. |
| 09:35 | <@McMartin> | I don't see it as an upgrade thing for old machines, really, but you can get a Vista-capable machine for $500 US. |
| 09:35 | <@Reiver> | I more mean... |
| 09:35 | <@McMartin> | Before bulk discounts. |
| 09:35 | | * Reiver um. |
| 09:36 | <@Reiver> | Compare to *nix, 2k, even XP. |
| 09:36 | <@McMartin> | At time of launch, XP was worse. |
| 09:36 | <@Reiver> | And XP was a blinkworthy system-hog to start with. |
| 09:36 | <@Reiver> | Yeah, but... |
| 09:36 | <@Reiver> | What the hell does an OS do with all those cycles that the old one apparently didn't need? >.> |
| 09:36 | <@McMartin> | *nix is a special case, because certain versions require room-sized systems, while others can be stripped down to run on toasters. |
| 09:37 | <@McMartin> | Also, comparing the core UNIX utilities to Vista is unfair; You need that + X11R7 + GNOME. |
| 09:37 | <@McMartin> | + AIGLX or XGl, if you're comparing to Vista. |
| 09:37 | <@Reiver> | (Last two acronyms?) |
| 09:38 | <@McMartin> | Replacements of the X windowing layer with stuff that uses OpenGL acceleration to do it all. |
| 09:38 | <@McMartin> | Vista's "Aero" stuff does the same, OS X has stuff for it too |
| 09:38 | <@McMartin> | Using a 3D card to also handle window management boosts minimum requirements noticably. |
| 09:38 | <@Reiver> | Right. |
| 09:38 | <@McMartin> | But it also lets you keep the CPU focussed on things the graphics card *can't* do, so overall it's a performance *gain*. |
| 09:39 | <@McMartin> | But yeah. MS got its act together after the laughable early betas, and requirements even for Aero are apparently noticably closer to AIGLX and Xgl now. |
| 09:40 | <@Reiver> | Ah? Useful. |
| 09:40 | <@McMartin> | Though those latter are persnickety about which cards they'll play nice with. |
| 09:40 | <@McMartin> | So for "I have a random computer and want this", Vista will probably actually be ahead of the game for awhile after launch. |
| 09:40 | | * Reiver had heard this was mostly the fault of the drivers. |
| 09:40 | <@McMartin> | (Xgl pretty much only works on nVidia chips, AIGLX doesn't seem to run on anything that currently exists, but the Intel embedded graphics chips will probably fully work first.) |
| 09:41 | <@Reiver> | As many card-makers are not overly Linux-friendly, or indeed, treat such things as practically a trade secret? |
| 09:41 | <@Reiver> | (This being rumor and hearsay, but.) |
| 09:41 | <@McMartin> | They won't publish register-programming material and have NDAs from third parties involving their actual core driver code. |
| 09:41 | <@McMartin> | ATI and nVidia both do Linux support though to varying degrees. |
| 09:42 | <@Reiver> | Aha. |
| 09:42 | | * Reiver nods. |
| 09:42 | <@McMartin> | At the moment it would appear that nVidia's support is more stable, but ATI's used to integrate more cleanly with X as it was before. |
| 09:42 | <@McMartin> | That's since been left behind. |
| 09:42 | <@Reiver> | ...Bummer. |
| 09:42 | <@McMartin> | Older ATI cards have been fully reverse-engineered and are independently supported. |
| 09:42 | <@McMartin> | None of those have the requisite power to do AIGLX though. |
| 09:43 | <@McMartin> | (No pixel shaders, which are Kind Of Important when the contents of windows are secretly textures) |
| 09:43 | <@Reiver> | ...Irony. |
| 09:43 | <@Reiver> | ...Contents of windows secretly textures. Hrm. |
| 09:43 | < EvilDarkLord> | I tried running XGl with my x700, but alas, it failed to actually do anything. |
| 09:43 | <@Reiver> | That is a Significant boost to GFX requirements, innit. |
| 09:44 | <@McMartin> | EDL: Yeah, it really doesn't like anything but nVidia cards, ANAICT. |
| 09:44 | <@McMartin> | Ran like a dream on my GF4MX, though, which is pretty laughably obsolescent. |
| 09:47 | <@McMartin> | I didn't try movie playback on it, though. I'm told that that would have not worked so well. |
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| 12:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | I seem to recall XGL working fine on 9000-series Radeons. |
| 12:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | Also, if XP is a from-scratch recode, why is the internal version number NT5? |
| 12:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | 5.1, rather. |
| 12:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | 2000 identifies itself as 5.0, XP as 5.1, Server 2k3 as 5.2. |
| 12:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | Besides which, everything and its dog - including, AFAICT, MS itself - states that XP is based on the NT kernel. |
| 12:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | Anyways. Off to databases I go. |
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| 19:13 | < Vornotron> | Makeshift Miracle is unsatisfyingly small. |
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| 21:09 | < Vornotron> | Is tehre a way to have Windows notify you when a file changes? |
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| 21:26 | <@ToxicFrog> | I know the kernel has some form of file-monitoring capability, but I don't know if users can make use of it. |
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| 21:39 | <@McMartin> | People run Windows apps in user mode?~ |
| 21:43 | < Vornotron> | I'm pretty sure you can run it in user-mode, but I am under the impression that it's a programming tool, and there isn't a standard utility that does it. |
| 21:43 | < Vornotron> | TortoiseSVN watches it, I think. |
| 21:44 | <@TheWatcher> | TortoiseCVS does too. But they're shell extensions, so I expect they don't run in user mode |
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| 21:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: I mean in the sense that "there is a program or API you can use" |
| 21:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | As opposed to "there is a program or API that only Microsoft's systems programmers can use" |
| 21:53 | <@McMartin> | Ah |
| 21:54 | < Vornotron> | There is an API I can use, i know that. |
| 21:55 | < Vornotron> | The question is more along the lines of 1. how the hell do I use it, and 2. what the hell is it called. |
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| 23:14 | < Vornotron> | ...I have the Milon's Secret Castle music stuck in my head. |
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| --- Log closed Fri Sep 29 00:00:01 2006 |