| --- Log opened Sun Jul 30 00:00:35 2006 |
| 01:14 | | ReivZzz is now known as Reiver |
| 01:20 | <@Reiver> | That's a very interesting question, TW |
| 01:20 | <@Vornicus> | This room is getting bigger but not louder. |
| 01:21 | <@Reiver> | It is. |
| 01:21 | <@Reiver> | Perhaps we should start asking stupid questions? |
| 01:22 | <@Chalcedon> | its a Vornicus!!! |
| 01:22 | | * Chalcedon waves hello |
| 01:22 | | * Reiver has one: Why can't Java bloody well have had the getters and setters automagically set? |
| 01:24 | | Mahal [~MahalMac@Nightstar-12512.worldnet.co.nz] has joined #Code |
| 01:24 | | mode/#code [+o Mahal] by ChanServ |
| 01:24 | <@Mahal> | Waitwhat? |
| 01:24 | <@Mahal> | I have ops in here why? |
| 01:25 | <@Reiver> | Because I am reasonably certain you are not an idiot, and am even more reasonably certain you will smite those who are? |
| 01:25 | <@Mahal> | OK :) |
| 01:25 | <@Mahal> | It's not that I mind, was jsut a surprise :) |
| 01:25 | <@Chalcedon> | thats a good reason |
| 01:25 | | * Reiver subscribes to the "If you're OK, you're an Op" theory of operage. |
| 01:25 | | * Mahal has noticed this. |
| 01:26 | <@Vornicus> | Perhaps we /should/ start asking stupid questions. |
| 01:26 | <@Mahal> | Woudlnt' work so well for #tsc, mid you, but. |
| 01:26 | <@Reiver> | Vorn: A good idea! |
| 01:26 | | * Mahal will have lots of stupid questions next week. |
| 01:26 | <@Reiver> | No, TSC is a different sort of channel. |
| 01:26 | | * Mahal has to go back to the @$^@#*$&^(# $^&*(# ^&*@#($ ^ php project. |
| 01:26 | <@Vornicus> | Chalain posted an interesting conundrum in his LJ. |
| 01:26 | <@Reiver> | Aye? |
| 01:26 | | * Chalcedon guesses that Mahal doesn't like php much? |
| 01:26 | <@Vornicus> | Namely, how do you refactor from "this class does something" to "this class is something" |
| 01:26 | | * Mahal *likes* PHP. |
| 01:27 | | * Mahal does /not/ like this project. |
| 01:27 | <@Reiver> | ...Good question. |
| 01:27 | | * Vornicus doesn't like php. |
| 01:27 | | * Mahal wonders why not? |
| 01:29 | <@Vornicus> | Approximately the same reason I don't like ObjC - it seems like two entirely different languages glommed together. |
| 01:29 | <@Mahal> | OK. |
| 01:29 | | * Mahal shrugs |
| 01:29 | <@Mahal> | It works for what I'm doing nicely. |
| 01:29 | <@Reiver> | Mahal, you are a web-coder. |
| 01:30 | <@Mahal> | yes. |
| 01:30 | <@Mahal> | Exactly. |
| 01:30 | <@Mahal> | :) |
| 01:30 | <@Reiver> | It's been discussed before that it's not the code that puts you off, but the... alogrethmatic way of thinking. |
| 01:30 | <@Reiver> | Vorn here is pretty much pure comp science, and he luvs his alograthms, he does... ;) |
| 01:30 | <@Mahal> | Indeed so. |
| 01:30 | <@Mahal> | Ahhhh. |
| 01:30 | | * Mahal envies people who can think that way. |
| 01:30 | | * Vornicus is a mathematician first. |
| 01:30 | <@Chalcedon> | -er- algorithms? |
| 01:31 | | * Vornicus is an engineer second. |
| 01:31 | | * Vornicus is a programmer third. |
| 01:31 | <@Reiver> | This means his coding tends to be somewhat influenced by the previous two. ;) |
| 01:31 | | * Mahal is... none of the above, really. |
| 01:31 | <@Mahal> | Er, I missed the programming line. |
| 01:31 | | * Reiver is a scientist first, coder/mathemititian second. |
| 01:31 | <@Mahal> | I am a programmer or sorts. |
| 01:31 | | * Mahal ponders her own skillset. |
| 01:32 | | * Chalcedon is overwhelmingly a biologist. |
| 01:32 | | * Reiver would go so far to say that Mahal is not a programmer, but a coder? |
| 01:32 | <@Chalcedon> | Sadly biology does not apply very well to programming |
| 01:32 | <@Mahal> | Mmm. Designer then coder. |
| 01:32 | <@Reiver> | Chalcedon: Enzymes do! |
| 01:32 | <@Chalcedon> | ecology doesn't |
| 01:32 | <@Chalcedon> | currently JavaScript is driving me up the wall |
| 01:33 | <@Mahal> | Chalcedon, I meant to ask you and it zapped out of my brain on Friday (oohshinies). |
| 01:33 | <@Chalcedon> | Python was much easier |
| 01:33 | <@Mahal> | I have a functional dropdown menu |
| 01:33 | | * Vornicus is also a musician, a 3d artist, and a usability guru. |
| 01:33 | <@Mahal> | It is also a pretty one. |
| 01:33 | <@Chalcedon> | you do? |
| 01:33 | <@Mahal> | A friend of mine built it for me a long time since, it should still be in gmail somewhere. |
| 01:33 | <@Mahal> | if I can find it, you are welcome to it? |
| 01:33 | <@Mahal> | If you would like it? |
| 01:33 | <@Chalcedon> | that would be wonderful |
| 01:34 | <@Mahal> | OK. |
| 01:34 | <@Mahal> | For the moment I am wombling over to Colitis' house. |
| 01:34 | <@Mahal> | But I will be back later and will Hunt then. |
| 01:34 | <@Chalcedon> | its interesting how well music and mathematics work together |
| 01:34 | <@Mahal> | Oh yes, definitely. |
| 01:34 | <@Chalcedon> | that would be awesome Mahal thanks :) |
| 01:34 | <@Mahal> | Which is an interesting point, because I am a musician. But a crap mathemetician. |
| 01:35 | | * Chalcedon has no creativity |
| 01:35 | <@Chalcedon> | which goes a long way to explain why I'm not very good at programming and play the violin very mechanically |
| 01:35 | <@Reiver> | Methodical is not strictly a bad thing. |
| 01:36 | <@Chalcedon> | no, but when there's nothing but methodology? |
| 01:36 | <@Reiver> | Hmm. |
| 01:36 | <@Reiver> | That's when we break out the FOTRAN |
| 01:36 | <@Reiver> | ;) |
| 01:37 | <@Reiver> | (</obscure and not entirely fair programming joke>) |
| 01:37 | <@Chalcedon> | please explain? |
| 01:37 | | * Mahal wombles off to Colitis' now. |
| 01:37 | <@Chalcedon> | have fun Mahal :) |
| 01:37 | | Mahal [~MahalMac@Nightstar-12512.worldnet.co.nz] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] |
| 01:38 | | mode/#code [+ooo Reivlin TheWatcher[afk] ToxicFrog|AFK] by Reiver |
| 01:38 | | mode/#code [+o MahalWork] by Reiver |
| 01:38 | | mode/#code [+v EvilDarkLord] by Reiver |
| 01:39 | | * Chalcedon pokes Reiver |
| 01:39 | <@Reiver> | Eep? |
| 01:39 | <@Reiver> | Oh. |
| 01:39 | <@Vornicus> | FORTRAN: the language you use when you're working in punch cards and you don't have enough computer for graceful error correction. |
| 01:39 | <@Vornicus> | Or UI. Or, indeed, interactive input. |
| 01:40 | <@Reiver> | Vorn: To be fair, they've got new versions. |
| 01:40 | <@Vornicus> | My father knows FORTRAN. |
| 01:40 | <@Reiver> | Indeed, the latest incarnation was released in 2003 O.o |
| 01:40 | <@Vornicus> | My father /is afraid of my computer/. |
| 01:40 | <@Chalcedon> | Vorn: there is a program sitting on my computer written in Fortran |
| 01:40 | <@Chalcedon> | (not by me of course) |
| 01:41 | <@Vornicus> | Meanwhile, I have been thoroughly seduced by Ruby. Being able to change the way /numbers/ act is an incredibly powerful tool. |
| 01:41 | | * Chalcedon blinks |
| 01:41 | | * Chalcedon checks that Vorn hasn't broken any of the laws of physics |
| 01:42 | <@Vornicus> | -- specifically, the ability to use square roots and division and get /exact/ values as opposed to /guesses/. |
| 01:42 | <@Chalcedon> | why were they guesses in the first place? |
| 01:43 | <@Reiver> | You know when you get 3.33333333333333 Chalcedon? |
| 01:43 | <@Chalcedon> | yup |
| 01:43 | <@Reiver> | Or 0.333333333 more accurately, instead of 1/3. |
| 01:44 | <@Chalcedon> | its a guess? |
| 01:44 | <@Reiver> | The two are not /exactly/ the same, are they. |
| 01:44 | <@Chalcedon> | no, true |
| 01:44 | <@Reiver> | It's merely 'close enough'... |
| 01:44 | <@Chalcedon> | ok, that makes sense |
| 01:44 | | * Reiver nods. |
| 01:44 | <@Vornicus> | It's within epsilon of the right answer, but it is not the right answer, and it doesn't act exactly like the right answer. |
| 01:44 | | * Chalcedon needed the example |
| 01:45 | <@Chalcedon> | so if you divide 1 by 3 it will return 1/3 instead of 0.3333333333? |
| 01:45 | <@Vornicus> | http://community.livejournal.com/cs_lectures/3026.html |
| 01:46 | <@Reiver> | 0.33333333333 x3 != 1. |
| 01:46 | <@Reiver> | Is vorns point about 'behaving exactly like the right answer'. |
| 01:48 | | * Chalcedon sees this now |
| 01:48 | <@Chalcedon> | sadly I must leave this interesting conversation and arrange lunch. |
| 01:48 | <@Chalcedon> | bbl. |
| 01:49 | | * Reiver decides to do similar, only with showers instead of lunch! BRB. |
| 01:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | I have an overwhelming urge to post something to cs_lectures, but I can't think /what/. |
| 01:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | Vorn's already covered a lot of the obvious stuff like data structures. |
| 01:51 | <@Vornicus> | I could really use some knowledge on vtables and the like. |
| 01:52 | <@Vornicus> | My next post there should probably head back to the underlying structure of 3D, specifically orthogonal projection matrices and line plotting. |
| 01:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | Unfortunately, my knowledge of vtables is essentially nil. |
| 01:53 | <@Vornicus> | bah |
| 01:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | The various versions of ooLua don't use vtables to implement that behaviour and I've never played around at that level in C++. |
| 01:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | (and indeed, since Lua is weakly bound the question isn't entirely meaningful in that context anyways) |
| 01:56 | <@Vornicus> | (true) |
| 01:58 | <@Reiver> | "Lua: Why We Aren't Smoking Crack, Honest" |
| 01:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | I could do something about prototype-based OO, but covering class-based OO first might be advisable. |
| 02:00 | | * ToxicFrog eyebrows at Reiv. |
| 02:00 | <@Reiver> | Well, I see Lua fanaticism. |
| 02:00 | | * Vornicus dislikes Lua. |
| 02:00 | <@Vornicus> | It's just too damn tiny for me. |
| 02:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | Reiver: where? |
| 02:01 | <@Reiver> | What I am curious though is if it is so wonderful, what are the advantages, what are the disadvantages, why is it used, why has it not taken over the world yet? |
| 02:01 | | * Vornicus doesn't see lua fanaticism. |
| 02:01 | <@Reiver> | Could also do such a thing on Ruby, Python... *shrug* |
| 02:01 | <@Reiver> | What Is Each Good For(tm)? |
| 02:04 | <@Vornicus> | Lua is a great little embedded language, able to transform its object orientation to suit the needs of the program. |
| 02:05 | <@Vornicus> | Unfortunatelyit has only one numeric type, which is a pain for guys like me. |
| 02:06 | <@Vornicus> | Python is flexible object oriented scripting language with very strong library support. |
| 02:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | Lua doesn't _have_ object orientation. But you can add it. |
| 02:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | And yes, the relatively small selection of libraries is a pain at times. |
| 02:07 | <@Vornicus> | Unfortunately its idiosyncratic formatting-based flow control and occasional really bizarre behavior can get in the way. |
| 02:07 | <@Reiver> | ...I could ask for tips in here for my Java project. |
| 02:07 | | * Reiver slaps forehead, makes note to do so. |
| 02:07 | <@Vornicus> | Ruby is perhaps the most flexible programming language out there. Classes are /wide open/. You can change the behaviour of any class, even ones that you didn't write. |
| 02:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | I really like the concept of ruby, but the language itself gives me the jibblies. |
| 02:08 | <@Vornicus> | The library support, while stronger than Lua's, is not as good as Python's, and the documentation is ass. |
| 02:08 | <@Reiver> | What's the problem? |
| 02:08 | <@Vornicus> | Or in Japanese. Same difference. |
| 02:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | Reiver: there is no reason I can accurately articulate. It just does. |
| 02:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | I may revisit it if I ever get bored with Lua. |
| 02:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: what does it have in the way of UI toolkits and preemptive multithreading? |
| 02:10 | <@Vornicus> | One likely reason for TF's jibblification is that Ruby and VB share the feature that parentheses around parameters into a method are optional. |
| 02:10 | <@Vornicus> | It runs tk. |
| 02:10 | <@Vornicus> | multithreading it does about the same way as python - it's VM-faked. |
| 02:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | Tk, in my experience, does not "run" per se ;.; |
| 02:11 | <@Vornicus> | You think you have Tk bad? I have a Mac. |
| 02:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | Although it's still vastly superior to wx, in that at least you can get a program that enters main() using tk. |
| 02:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | I should probably finish v2.0 of luathreads at some point ;.; |
| 02:41 | | Vornicus is now known as Marv |
| 02:43 | | Reiver is now known as Zachary |
| 02:43 | | Chalcedon [~Chalceon@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Quit: ] |
| 03:40 | | Chalcedon [~Chalceon@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #code |
| 03:40 | | mode/#code [+o Chalcedon] by ChanServ |
| 03:57 | | MahalMac [~MahalMac@Nightstar-3871.worldnet.co.nz] has joined #code |
| 03:57 | | mode/#code [+o MahalMac] by ChanServ |
| 04:00 | | MahalMac [~MahalMac@Nightstar-3871.worldnet.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving] |
| 04:01 | | MahalMac [~MahalMac@Nightstar-3871.worldnet.co.nz] has joined #code |
| 04:01 | | mode/#code [+o MahalMac] by ChanServ |
| 04:21 | | MahalMac is now known as Mahal |
| 04:59 | | Marv is now known as Vornicus |
| 04:59 | | Vornicus [~vorn@Nightstar-18307.slkc.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: ] |
| 05:29 | | Zachary is now known as Reiver |
| 06:05 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 06:15 | | Mahal [~MahalMac@Nightstar-3871.worldnet.co.nz] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] |
| 07:09 | | Mahal [~Mahal@Nightstar-3871.worldnet.co.nz] has joined #code |
| 07:09 | | mode/#code [+o Mahal] by ChanServ |
| 07:16 | | Mahal [~Mahal@Nightstar-3871.worldnet.co.nz] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] |
| 08:44 | | Mahal [~Mahal@Nightstar-12512.worldnet.co.nz] has joined #code |
| 08:44 | | mode/#code [+o Mahal] by ChanServ |
| 09:04 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
| 09:11 | | MahalWork [~Mahal@Nightstar-12512.worldnet.co.nz] has quit [Connection reset by peer] |
| 09:16 | | MahalWork [~Mahal@Nightstar-12512.worldnet.co.nz] has joined #Code |
| 09:16 | | mode/#code [+o MahalWork] by ChanServ |
| 09:54 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 10:35 | | Netsplit DeepThought.NY.US.Nightstar.Net <-> Blargh.CA.US.Nightstar.Net quits: +EvilDarkLord, @Chalcedon, @Reiver |
| 10:41 | | Reivlin [~reiver@Nightstar-23531.ubs-dsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 10:41 | | EvilDarkLord [althalas@Nightstar-17046.a80-186-184-83.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #Code |
| 10:41 | | Chalcedon [~Chalceon@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #Code |
| 10:41 | | mode/#code [+o Chalcedon] by ChanServ |
| 10:41 | | Reivles [~reaverta@IRCop.Nightstar.Net] has joined #Code |
| 10:41 | | ServerMode/#Code [+v EvilDarkLord] by Blargh.CA.US.Nightstar.Net |
| 10:41 | | Reivlin [~reiver@Nightstar-28606.ubs-dsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #Code |
| 10:42 | | Reivles is now known as Reiver |
| 13:02 | | Mahal is now known as MahalZzz |
| 13:34 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
| 14:28 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 14:50 | | Chalcy [~Chalceon@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #code |
| 14:50 | | mode/#code [+o Chalcy] by ChanServ |
| 14:50 | | Chalcedon [~Chalceon@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 15:21 | | Reiver is now known as ReivZzz |
| 17:28 | | Chalcy [~Chalceon@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 17:41 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
| 18:30 | | Vornicus [~vorn@Nightstar-18307.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #code |
| 18:30 | | mode/#code [+o Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| 18:35 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 19:31 | | Chalcedon [~Chalceon@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #code |
| 19:31 | | mode/#code [+o Chalcedon] by ChanServ |
| 20:27 | | MahalZzz is now known as Mahal |
| 22:18 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 22:21 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
| 22:35 | | Reivlin [~reiver@Nightstar-28606.ubs-dsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 22:35 | | ReivZzz [~reaverta@IRCop.Nightstar.Net] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 22:38 | | Mahal [~Mahal@Nightstar-12512.worldnet.co.nz] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] |
| 22:39 | | Mahal [~Mahal@Nightstar-12512.worldnet.co.nz] has joined #code |
| 22:39 | | mode/#code [+o Mahal] by ChanServ |
| 23:49 | | ReivZzz [~reaverta@IRCop.Nightstar.Net] has joined #Code |
| 23:49 | | mode/#code [+o ReivZzz] by ChanServ |
| 23:49 | | Reivlin [~reiver@Nightstar-28681.ubs-dsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #Code |
| --- Log closed Mon Jul 31 00:00:35 2006 |