| --- Log opened Tue Jun 07 00:00:26 2011 |
| 00:09 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 00:15 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 00:19 | | shade_of_cpux is now known as cpux |
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| 01:25 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 01:35 | < McMartin> | Dammit, Windows, stop holding out |
| 01:35 | < McMartin> | 90% of the goodies TweakUI and friends let you do are actually standard admin tools, they just aren't exposed to local users. |
| 01:36 | < McMartin> | Even though they have local analogs, documented on a Post-It Note in the back of a tiger-infested filing cabinet |
| 01:36 | < ToxicFrog> | "local analogs"? |
| 01:37 | < McMartin> | So, there's the whole Group Policy Administration stuff, which is stored in various LDAP extensions and stuff, with simple string names. |
| 01:37 | < Derakon> | Things you can do through the un-enhanced interface, I suspect. |
| 01:37 | < ToxicFrog> | (my recurring gripe with Features Windows Has But Does Not Expose Anywhere: SFFM.) |
| 01:37 | < simon_> | I've got a Core 2 Duo @ 1.66GHz, and I wonder if it's powerful enough to simulate Linux within Windows at no remarkable penalty. that'd be a neat way to run two systems. |
| 01:38 | < McMartin> | Those names are also valid registry values is HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Policies |
| 01:38 | < McMartin> | And if you put them there they apply to all local users. |
| 01:38 | < ToxicFrog> | simon_: if by "simulate Linux within Windows" you mean "run a Linux guest/Windows host VM", yes, easily. |
| 01:38 | < McMartin> | simon: Yeah. Give VirtualBox a shot. |
| 01:38 | < simon_> | ToxicFrog, cool. |
| 01:38 | < simon_> | McMartin, I'll try that. |
| 01:38 | < ToxicFrog> | The main thing to watch out for is not actual CPU (there's very little overhead there) but RAM. |
| 01:38 | | * McMartin nods |
| 01:38 | < McMartin> | Modern VM systems actually take the CPU directly and don't do emulation except of the hardware layer |
| 01:38 | < simon_> | I'm at 2GB RAM. |
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| 01:39 | < McMartin> | That's enough to let you run a half-gig Linux box in VM with no trouble. |
| 01:39 | < Derakon> | What do you want to run in Linux? |
| 01:39 | < Derakon> | And yeah, I also have 2GB and run VirtualBox to do XP (my main's OSX) without difficulty. |
| 01:39 | < McMartin> | 1-gig with a little trouble. Unless you've got a 64-bit version of Windows, though, much past 1 gig and you'll start hitting the 2GB per-process memory limit and start getting memory failures. |
| 01:39 | < simon_> | Derakon, I just got a job coding Perl, and I suspect that having a more Unix-like environment is going to be less of a pain. |
| 01:39 | < McMartin> | Probably true. |
| 01:39 | < Derakon> | Yeah, I'd agree there. |
| 01:39 | < McMartin> | Also, ActivePerl is in fact the shiznit, as is Notepad++, once you start deploying on Windows itself. |
| 01:40 | < ToxicFrog> | I've done Windows host/Linux guest in 2GB no problem (1.5/0.5 and 1/1), and even Linux host/Windows guest in 1GB, although that was a bit dicey. |
| 01:40 | < simon_> | McMartin, on StrawberryPerl's homepage it says that Larry Wall recommends it on Windows. |
| 01:40 | < Derakon> | Anyway, Perl itself doesn't need much to run. |
| 01:40 | < Derakon> | It's all the stuff you do in it that can eat up the resources~ |
| 01:40 | < ToxicFrog> | Also also, if you're not afraid of the command line Cygwin gives you a windows native unix-like environment (along with all of the tools you'd expect including perl, python, gcc, make, bash, rxvt, a complete X server, etc) |
| 01:41 | < simon_> | Derakon, right. it's mostly all the weird packages and their Unix-ish dependencies I'm afraid of. |
| 01:41 | < McMartin> | Yeah |
| 01:41 | < ToxicFrog> | Which I would honestly recommend before using a VM just for this. |
| 01:41 | < McMartin> | I'd prefer a VM over cygwin. |
| 01:41 | | * McMartin hates cygwin >_> |
| 01:41 | < ToxicFrog> | ...does CPAN not play nice with cygwin or something? |
| 01:41 | < McMartin> | It's more cygwin doesn't play nice with other things I like. |
| 01:41 | < ToxicFrog> | Aah |
| 01:41 | < McMartin> | Or didn't the last time I tried, and never went back. |
| 01:41 | < ToxicFrog> | Examples? |
| 01:41 | < simon_> | I ran Cygwin five years ago. it... works, but it isn't pleasant. :) |
| 01:42 | < McMartin> | I had a couple of MinGW-based applications and Cygwin kept fighting with it for which things to use, because they weren't compatible |
| 01:42 | < McMartin> | I want to say Dev-CPP. |
| 01:42 | | * ToxicFrog has been using Cygwin happily for ten years, but his typical windows environment is basically Cygwin and little else, soooo |
| 01:42 | < ToxicFrog> | Um |
| 01:42 | < McMartin> | It would not surprise me if Windows Git did this too, since it is MSYS based, and IIRC MSYS and Cygwin are still not compatible. |
| 01:42 | < simon_> | ToxicFrog, if I were forced to use Windows, I'd go with Cygwin. |
| 01:42 | < ToxicFrog> | That's odd and implies some sort of install problem, because I have been using Cygwin and Mingw/MSYS side by side for nearly as long as I've been using Cygwin itself |
| 01:43 | < McMartin> | Sure. |
| 01:43 | < ToxicFrog> | Granted, I haven't done that in the past few years since I moved to a linux-host/windows-target mingw-based cross compile environment for generating windows builds |
| 01:43 | < McMartin> | "The installs are terrifyingly easy to fuck up and very fragile" is good enough reason for me. |
| 01:43 | < ToxicFrog> | Yeah, see, my experience was |
| 01:43 | < ToxicFrog> | (1) install Cygwin |
| 01:43 | < ToxicFrog> | (2) install MSYS |
| 01:43 | < ToxicFrog> | (3) everything just works |
| 01:43 | < ToxicFrog> | That said |
| 01:43 | < McMartin> | Yeah, my experience was definitely in the (1) install stuff |
| 01:43 | < ToxicFrog> | I didn't use any of this from the windows command line. |
| 01:43 | < McMartin> | (2) install cygwin |
| 01:44 | < McMartin> | (3) Everything installed in (1) breaks |
| 01:44 | < McMartin> | And ISTR reversing the order broke cygwin itself |
| 01:44 | < ToxicFrog> | I used Cygwin from cygwin rxvt and MSYS from mingw rxvt and neither seemed to have any problem. |
| 01:44 | < McMartin> | Ah. |
| 01:44 | < ToxicFrog> | I could easily see some sort of $PATH-based horrors if you were using cmd.exe, since I know mingw at least modifies $PATH so you can use it from cmd.exe and Cygwin may do the same. |
| 01:45 | < McMartin> | I tended to do that, or use them as file associations. |
| 01:45 | < McMartin> | Because the whole point of this was to be able to double-click .tgz files and have them unzip. |
| 01:45 | < ToxicFrog> | Oh, yeah. I have no idea how well that works (if at all) and wouldn't be surprised to find out the answer is "badly". |
| 01:45 | < ToxicFrog> | For that I use actual native tools~ |
| 01:45 | < McMartin> | 7-Zip was still terrible back then~ |
| 01:46 | < ToxicFrog> | WinRAR has had tgz support since like 1995~ |
| 01:46 | < McMartin> | WinRAR has never been good~ |
| 01:46 | < McMartin> | But yeah, Windows-native environments have gotten a whole lot better in the past six years. |
| 01:46 | < ToxicFrog> | (My use cases were "I want an X server, and also to be able to build linux software for local use and use version control and stuff" for Cygwin, and "I want to generate Windows builds of my C programs" for mingw; I never even attempted windows shell integration with either.) |
| 01:47 | < McMartin> | (Yeah, my MSYS usecase was more "I have some shell scripts that I'd like to deploy on Windows systems" and "I'd like to use reference implementations for opening various files") |
| 01:47 | < McMartin> | (So what I *really* wanted was a cmd.exe that could run bash~ |
| 01:47 | < ToxicFrog> | (I will say that installing either of these just to unpack archives is like swatting a mosquito with an orbit-to-surface linear accelerator, and from what you've said was actually less pleasant than just using winRAR or winACE) |
| 01:48 | < McMartin> | (Well, installing MSYS alone wasn't bad at all~) |
| 01:49 | < McMartin> | (These days for the archives stuff gnuwin32 solves all of these problems much more neatly.) |
| 01:49 | < McMartin> | (Git *only runs* in MSYS on Windows -_-) |
| 01:49 | < ToxicFrog> | (and in Cygwin.) |
| 01:50 | < ToxicFrog> | (Which is how I've been using it, on those rare occasions when I want git on windows) |
| 01:50 | < McMartin> | (Well, Git ships as an MSYS bundle if you say "Hey I have windows and would like to use Git") |
| 01:50 | < McMartin> | (This is how Astatine got its MSYS install set up, actually) |
| 01:50 | < ToxicFrog> | (yeah, this is "the closest thing to an official windows Git build is an MSYS package") |
| 01:50 | < ToxicFrog> | (this may be a side effect of Git being, once you flip over a few turtles, a horrifying assemblage of bash and perl) |
| 01:51 | < ToxicFrog> | But we digress~ |
| 01:51 | < ToxicFrog> | simon_: install Virtualbox, give it an appropriate amount of disk and 512-1024MB of memory, install your linux distro of choice, install the guest additions, and enable either seamless or fullscreen mode as appropriate, and you're good. |
| 01:52 | < simon_> | I'm on it! :) |
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| --- Log closed Tue Jun 07 10:31:52 2011 |
| --- Log opened Tue Jun 07 10:32:04 2011 |
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| 14:36 | | * TheWatcher hairpulls at this dynamic button generation code |
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| 17:32 | | AnnoDomini is now known as Oramus |
| 17:36 | | * gnolam eyes the neighborhood routers. |
| 17:36 | | * Tamber offers gnolam some tinfoil? |
| 17:43 | < gnolam> | It's that they take longer to boot than my computer. |
| 18:05 | | * ToxicFrog ponders. |
| 18:05 | < ToxicFrog> | Thinking of random things: my dad left one hell of a legacy. |
| 18:10 | < ToxicFrog> | He was on the ANSI C89 standardization comittee. |
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| 18:26 | < simon_> | cool |
| 18:36 | | RichardBarrell_m [richardbarr@Nightstar-3b2c2db2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #code |
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| 18:47 | < gnolam> | ... and another login node outage, caused by "a single user accidentally running a very large process" |
| 18:48 | < Tamber> | Oh dear. |
| 18:49 | < gnolam> | Come /on/ people, it's not rocket surgery: start your jobs on the cluster, not the login node. >:E |
| 18:50 | < Tamber> | "Well, actually, it /is/ rocket surgery... but it's not complicated." |
| 18:50 | < RichardBarrell_m> | That sounds almost like a cute foible, or it would be of it weren't so irritating. |
| 18:51 | < Vornicus> | wtf, DoS |
| 18:52 | < simon_> | I liked one Slashdot signature: "In fact, I am a rocket scientist." |
| 18:52 | < Tamber> | :p |
| 18:54 | < gnolam> | It's not like it happens a l... OH WAIT EVERY WEEK |
| 18:55 | < RichardBarrell_m> | "Simple rocket surgery" in my mind conjures the image of a rocket propelled chainsaw. It's simple because you care little about the exact details of the resulting configuration of flesh, so long as it's messy. |
| 18:56 | < RichardBarrell_m> | gnolam: sounds way past due for a sysadmin to impose some rlimits. |
| 19:11 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 19:48 | < gnolam> | "Or you deliberately place your subject in front of a bright window and overexpose the hell outta everything to give a very vogue-like, high key rendition, and thus veer into close orbit with Ice Planet 255, where there is no sustainable pixel life." |
| 19:54 | < gnolam> | ... and now the entire cluster went down anyway. |
| 19:55 | < gnolam> | Cooling system malfunction. |
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| 22:12 | < RichardBarrell> | Hello Jess. |
| 22:12 | < wildfire198> | hello! |
| 23:03 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 23:19 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 23:45 | < simon_> | hmm... if I copy something by marking it, in X11, and I hit shift+insert, I paste it in the terminal, but shift+insert in my browser uses the browser's own paste buffer. is there an alternate key combo? |
| --- Log closed Wed Jun 08 00:00:41 2011 |